The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission

1 On May 14th, 2010, at 3:17am, Numa Gomez wrote:

Thanks for the input concerning a very emotional issue.  One suggestion I do have is to consider lesser penalties for those who are adults or teens now, but are here in this country through no fault of their’s.  Many were brought as infants and children with mom and/or dad, but have only known this country as their own.  Otherwise, as a Hispanic-American, I appreciate this wise and humane solution.  Thanks.

3 On May 14th, 2010, at 5:08pm, Rafael de Armas wrote:

Last week the media reported, in one of our northern states, an illegal man from Honduras beaten to death by some whites. 
Some young men accosted an American citizen woman of Puerto Rican descent last week in Orlando, FL.  While she was walking the dog in her middle class neighborhood, a car stopped and a young man got out and shouted at her profanities and abusive language
Soon, if not already, there will be young Hispanics fighting back.  Let us pray that both sides show restraint. 
There is enough firepower on both sides to make the civil war pale in comparison.  Perish the thought!  God have mercy!!

5 On May 15th, 2010, at 5:54pm, sean mckenzie wrote:

God bless you Mr. Land and Mr. Duke.  This is a very compassionate, thorough, reasonable, and workable blueprint.  It reflects a Biblical position on immigration reform, and I believe that if one takes an honest look at what scripture has to say about this topic, one will find the logic of this argument to be irrefutable. 

I believe that the stand you are taking is going to be a game-changer, and that immigration reform is going to pass.  I implore you to use all your resources and influence to push for legislation soon.  I also ask Baptists and evangelical Christians to pray about this issue and follow the lead of Mr. Land and Mr. Duke, for they have taken a truly courageous stand.

In Christ,
Sean McKenzie

7 On May 15th, 2010, at 9:32pm, Betty wrote:

I agree with you on EVERY point you made,David. (post #2) As for post #3 and his agenda leaves alot to be desired. I suggest he check the crime statistics.

Mr. Land does not speak for me and many others I know and their stand on this issue. He is leading the “sheeple” into the wolves den.  Were we not warned throughout the entire Bible of the false leaders? Do they need to fill their pews and coffers? Apparently so. Many Christians I know have left the churches due to the liberal,YES the LIBERAL interpretation of God’s Word and claim to be “conservative Christians”.

Amnesty,(and that is EXACTLY what it is) and 3rd world immigration into America is just another agenda to dilute the founding peoples (Caucasians) and their PROGENY and replace them with a completely different people. The Founders proclaimed this land for themselves and their PROGENY. Look up the definition of progeny.

9 On May 18th, 2010, at 4:46am, Scott Zalaznik wrote:

Thank you for the hard work and thoughtful analysis that went into this document.  I try to get as many as possible to read it in order to gain a better understanding of where the Bible gives guidance on the issue and what a balanced solution will look like.

As can be expected - the critics are vocal, personal, and lack scriptural basis for their ‘critiques’ and manner.  The current debate is disheartening.  What is most disheartening is the level of biblical illiteracy within the church and how many are more swayed by political pundits than by Scripture.  I truly believe it represents a far greater threat than our broken immigration system.  I do pray that the work you are doing will have a positive influence, though I am not optimistic that our political leaders will demonstrate the courage you are demonstrating and that this task requires.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott Zalaznik

11 On May 18th, 2010, at 2:58pm, Harry Riley wrote:

If it were only easy…basically the Land/Duke is a regurgitation of the McCain amnesty legislation that was rejected by America in overwhelming numbers.

Unfortunately, this “think piece” is lulling Christians down the road to cultural upheaval, embolding lawlessness, an administrative nightmare the US government is totally incompetent to manage, and in the final analysis will not help nor stop illegal aliens while penalizing American citizens.

The paper completely ignores the Mexican government responsibility?  Not all illegal aliens are Mexicans, but most are…how and what accountability must Mexico accept? Take a look at the Mexican immigration/entry policy as to how they handle their visitors or illegal entries…it may be a reality shock.

The Land/Duke offering must be phased, if any reasonable hope exists…close the border and prosecute “users” of illegal aliens.  When that’s done, deal with the other issues…the first task in any flood is to “turn off the faucet”...

13 On May 19th, 2010, at 4:55am, Michael Joe Thannisch wrote:

To prosecute or fine the users of illegal aliens is an important aspect.  Indeed, if the Federal government had enforced the immigration law of 1986 which called for up to a $2000.00 per illegal for first offense and up to a $5000.00 fine for the second offense, and worse for the third, we wouldn’t be having this problem today. 

Big business (and middle class individuals) have been abusing illegals far too long.

15 On May 21st, 2010, at 2:32pm, Janis wrote:

Any religious leader or politician who has a burden for foreign nationals living in the U.S. illegally should go to their country of origin and work for them there.  In other words go to the source of the problem and hold the governments of these people accountable for their welfare.  Making American citizens the fall guy for dysfunctional governments is not only unfair, it is no solution to the problem.  If the federal government would penalize employers who hire the undocumented, and quit making the American taxpayer fund services for them, they would self deport very quickly.

17 On May 21st, 2010, at 5:10pm, Sean McKenzie wrote:

I am a teacher, and some of the best students I have ever taught have been immigrants - some documented, some not.  The best student I ever taught has his papers.  His father applied and waited ten years.  My student prayed and prayed, and when he was granted resident status, he crawled several miles to church with tears in his eyes and blood on his knees thanking God.  However, because the process took so long, his older brother was no longer a minor and did not get resident status.

The issue is so much more complicated than “well it’s against the law so that settles it.” Additionally, Dr. Land’s proposal is not amnesty.  As he once wrote, words have agreed upon definitions, and the definition of amnesty is to break the law with no penalty.  Dr. Land proposes numerous penalties.  Therefore his proposal is not amnesty.

19 On May 26th, 2010, at 10:43pm, Scott wrote:

The Catholic Bishops are pushing for the same things as Land/Duke, isn’t this interesting. I’ve asked the Bishops to provide amnesty for Vatican City citizenships for at least 100 illegal aliens from Mexico but they never responded. I wonder why?

Isn’t it also interesting that so many religious leaders who want this don’t pay federal income taxes like the rest of us?

Finally, there is no biblical parallel with today’s “illegal” immigration to America and the immigration seen in the Bible, it’s as different as night and day. For example becoming a citizen of biblical era Rome, not an easy process at all.

21 On Jun 2nd, 2010, at 5:40pm, Travis Rann wrote:

To the person who says that we should only help people on their own soil, I am a missionary in Mexico City.  There are between 28-30 million people to live here.  The IMB has 12 missionary families here.  Have you ever thought that we aren’t doing a good enough job going to the nations and that maybe we need to realize that for whatever reason the nations are coming to us?  I am sure that you have given a week every now and then to go on a mission trip to “these people”.  But what about the other 51 weeks a year.  Every person commenting most likely lives within 10 miles of probably a handful of people that represent countries all over the world.  In essence “Judea and Samaria” are coming to us and I believe that we are going to be held accountable to how we minister to them.

23 On Jun 2nd, 2010, at 7:48pm, Betty wrote:

Well Travis Rann, I believe you are wrong on this issue. Minister to them in their own lands!  Isn’t that what missionaries are for? You do not let the stranger (alien) to come into the lands you built. God also warned about the alien ruling over us, did HE not?

Quit with your tired ole cliche that these “working” Mexicans do not commit crimes and get all kinds of freebies and aid while in our country! And STOP with the other lie that they “only do the jobs that Americans won’t do”.  Let’s talk about all those Meth labs they set up and marijuana operations in our Sierra Nevada!

Maybe you need to read this again. Boundries of all peoples (borders for their own nations)

Acts 17:26

From one man 1 he made every nation of the human race 2 to inhabit the entire earth, 3 determining their set times 4 and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 5

25 On Jun 2nd, 2010, at 10:29pm, Scott wrote:

It is just as “spiritual” and biblically important to administer the protections, sound laws, freedoms and needs of one’s country as it is to pray for a lost soul on a street corner. God is involved in more than many understand.

Without the former, darkness prevails. We have hundreds of examples before us of countries who have neglected their civic and Godly duties, leading to millions of lost souls in their midst. To neglect the country God has given us (as Mexico’s people have) would be a sin and I for one will not participate in that sin nor make excuses for it.

27 On Jun 3rd, 2010, at 5:36am, Curt wrote:

I worked in a factory 2-3 years ago in Oklahoma.
This company started us at $8.xx an hour.
They said they had a plant in Mexico and paid them
$2.xx an hour.  Based on an 40 hour week, that
would be $80-90.  Why do we think things like,
“that is good money for them”?  If they want to
buy a plane ticket to x,y, or z, they don’t
get a different rate.  Why do we treat Latin
America so poorly?  Would you ask a British person
to work for 1/4 of your wages? If we paid Latin
Americans workers at least 70% to do the same
job in Latin America that a US worker did,
then I would be angry for thier illegal entry.
Should not a person be paid a just wage?
We have more disposable income by the fact
that other workers are treated less decent.
We have the money to spend $70 on a concert
ticket, but a fruit picker in Latin America
probably makes less than $2.00 a day.
Is this just?  We treat Latin America like
an uncomfortable blemish that we would
just assume cut off.

29 On Jun 3rd, 2010, at 4:30pm, Betty wrote:

In response to Curt poster #26.

What? Why do WE treat Latin Americans so poorly?  Where are you coming from? It isn’t US, it is their own countries!  Their cost of living in those countries are nowhere NEAR what ours is! By your logic, we need to bring in millions of Chinese, Africans, and all the other 3rd world peoples! How long do you think the USA would last? It wouldn’t. You would have us sink rather than take care of our OWN people as God intended when this nation was formed. We cannot sustain the world’s poor, no matter what you “think” God is telling you. God told us to PRESERVE OUR nation, not some 3rd world hellhole controlled by facists and communists!

31 On Jun 3rd, 2010, at 6:05pm, Michael Joe Thannisch wrote:

To #27.  I can’t speak for today, but I can tell you that 10 years ago $80-$90 per week was good money in Mexico, where at the time a four bedroom house could be rented for $35.00 month, and food was cheap.  Take all facts into account please.

33 On Jun 10th, 2010, at 3:12pm, dean davis wrote:

Dean, Pt. 2

This is the key question. According to Romans 13, the state exists for one primary purpose: to administer justice. In this case, it is the State’s duty to do just that: illegal aliens have broken the Law; when apprehended, they need to be tried and sentenced, certainly to deportation.

As a matter of pragmatic concern, mass deportation is ill-advised. The solution, it seems to me, is focus on destroying the magnet. This means enforcing immigration in the workplace. Through the use of e-verify, card-checks, occasional inspections, and severe penalties for violation, employers will stop hiring illegals. Illegals will soon leave and get in line in their homeland. However, if they are apprehended here for any reason, they should indeed be deported.

35 On Jun 10th, 2010, at 6:24pm, dean w. davis wrote:

Pt. 1

I would challenge Mr. Land’s and Duke’s use of the biblical texts.

Mt. 25 has nothing at all to do with indiscriminate charity to the poor; it speaks to us of the saving benefit of receiving Christians (Christ’s brothers) into one’s heart and care; to receive them is, implicitly, to receive Christ and the gospel. The improper use of this passage has become the basis for all sorts of liberal non-sense about the duty of Christians to support socialist redistribution programs. See George Ladd’s NT Theology for a thorough and persuasive discussion

Similarly, Heb. 13 is simply an admonition for Christians to show hospitality to other Christians—assuming they are Christians indeed.

The OT texts encouraging a warm welcome to aliens and sojourners are primarily a picture of gospel openness to the Gentiles; of the future grafting of Gentiles into the vine of Israel. However, even in OT times, all had to be done lawfully.

37 On Jun 11th, 2010, at 3:26pm, Cheryl wrote:

As Christians we do have a duty unto God to care for the hurting around the world and I believe that Americans have done that better than anyone else, with little thanks or respect received for it. The point is we are broke! We have nothing left to give! The illigals are taking what little we have left.  Help Mexico fight the war on drugs. They are our neighbors and we need to do what we can, but we can not sustain the status que!

39 On Jun 23rd, 2010, at 9:12pm, Danielle Medina wrote:

Nowhere in the Word does it call for allowing those who dispise their intended country and wish to change the language/customs/basic culture of the land to move there and become citizens. If we become another nation I will have nothing on Earth-whether I stay or go elsewhere, it will never be the same-my roots would be completely destroyed.  Americans will experience psychological devastation of seeing their language, culture and way of life destroyed in a way that is brought about by violent warfare, at the hands of those who used to protect but now value a cheap buck over our well-being. Plus safety/liberty is at stake.  Some say we deserve this, due to the evils of slavery, indigenous land seizure/genocide-but two wrongs don’t make a right-this would not return things to the way they were before-it’s unjust to punish one person for the sins of another, also. Patriots of every race need to wake up and see what we can do to turn the tide before it is indeed too late.

41 On Jun 24th, 2010, at 7:01pm, Scott wrote:

Responding to Sean’s comments. Although your position makes some feel good it lack the facts. Mexico is not as desperate as many think. It’s #14 in GDP - over 170 other countries. It has one of the highest per-capita incomes in the world, home to the richest man in the world and more millionairs than Germany. Over 180 US companies operate there.

Mexico has everything it needs for God to bless its people if they choose to strive for it, not run from it.

Illegals are simply their government’s convenient solution to their working poor. Imagine how great it would be if our government encouraged ours to go to Mexico? Then they can wire money back to America.

Remember that every job an illegal takes could be filled by a legal immigrants or a citizen (only 1 in 20 do farm labor now).

If your theory applied to Nigeria it might have validity, however to continue to cater to a largely godless Mexico and people who violate our federal laws is not something I find promoted in the Bible.

43 On Jun 28th, 2010, at 4:53pm, Betty wrote:

Well, Sean according to you then the USA exists just to allow BILLIONS of all the poor in the world inside it’s borders? How long do you think YOU would survive?

And NO, the MAJORITY of mexicans do NOT come here for a “better” life!  Have you not read of all those illegals bringing in drugs and gangs and committing crimes in this nation? Maybe you better!

45 On Jun 30th, 2010, at 5:59am, sean mckenzie wrote:

Betty, just tonight I was doing some reading, of a book called “Welcoming the Stranger” by two Christians who work for a group called World Relief.  The program, kind of like you said, does what it can to help poor people all over the world. Seems like I heard somewhere that Christians were supposed to do that sort of thing.

“The employment rate for adult male undocumented immigrants is an estimated 96%, sighnificantly higher than for either work-authorized immigrants or for U.S.-citizen males.” (p.42)

“The crime rate among immigrants is actually lower than among native-born U.S. citizens, contrary to popular perception.” (p.28)

47 On Jul 4th, 2010, at 2:19am, John Green wrote:

I favor mandating e-verify and strictly prohibiting illegal immigrants from receiving public benefits.  Then they’d self deport.  It will not be necessary to clog up the courts with 20 million deportation cases.  We should also build the fence.  Ideally, we’d amend the Constitution if necessary to make it plain that children of illegal immigrants and temporary visitors do not get automatic citizenship.

Christian preachers can minister to the souls of Mexicans by moving to Mexico.  I am tired of being told that it is un-Christian to oppose the invasion.

49 On Jul 6th, 2010, at 3:52pm, Betty wrote:

Too much common sense, John Green.

Don’t forget the 14th Amendment does NOT grant citizenship to illegal anchor babies. This was “interpreted” by the socialist and communist enemies in our country who want to undermine the White demographic of the USA through the sheer numbers of nonwhite “immigrants” It is obvious to anyone who has eyes to see, that the main objective of the 1965 Immigration Act (a communist Act)was to REPLACE the Founding peoples (White) in all White nations with nonwhite peoples. Ask yourself why this is their agenda. They have even gotten the “Christians” on board with this self-inflicted genocide.

I will wager the moderators on this “Christian” site will not publish my comment. It hits to close to home.

51 On Jul 6th, 2010, at 5:13pm, Mark wrote:

“Since when is it Christian to force other people to
pay for your philosophy? Didnt charity have value
because the one performing it gave away his posessions..
not others? When you give away other Americans land,
culture, and future..against their will its called STEALING.”

I bet there is another people, the Native American Indian population, that would be curious to see how your faith justified their treatment.

53 On Jul 7th, 2010, at 2:36pm, tracy wrote:

We shouldn’t even go here until our BORDERS ARE SECURE!!!!!

“There is a way that seems right to man…it’s foolishness”