The Believer and Alcohol
- Aug 30, 2006 - 80
Culture endorses the use of alcohol as a beverage. Multiplied millions in the United States drink wine, beer and distilled spirits. Many professed followers of Jesus Christ socially participate. Even some ministers endorse the practice. What should the believer do?
In theory, apart from the dire warnings of Scripture, responsible alcohol consumption is acceptable for a Christian. In reality, few responsibly use alcohol. Statistics abound to show the result of alcohol abuse in the break-up of marriages, destruction of health and the loss of life. Without using one Bible verse, just looking at the devastating effect of alcohol on our society should cause a person to be a total abstainer.
Believers in Jesus Christ use the Bible as the final rule for faith and practice. Using the Bible, a person should be able to come to a conviction about the use of alcohol.
Concessions
It is obvious to the casual reader of the Bible that wine was a common drink of people of faith. From Noah to Paul, Bible heroes used wine. Strong drink is mentioned in the Bible as well. There is little doubt that many godly biblical figures drank alcohol as a beverage. Various Scripture verses indicate the blessing of God on the people of Israel in the Old Testament through wine (Psalm 104:15). Some worship incorporated the use of wine (Exodus 29:40). To deny the use of wine in the Bible is not a defensible position.
There were other practices in Bible times that we do not do today. Multiple wives, concubines, even slave ownership were accepted practices, regulated and not directly forbidden in the Scriptures. Today, benefiting from the full counsel of Scripture, we have come to understand that these practices are unacceptable.
Conflict
A biblical inerrantist sees difficult passages in the Bible, even paradoxes, but no contradictions. To believe in biblical inerrancy one must have a high view of the nature of Scripture. However interpretation within the bounds of inerrancy is very wide. With all of the perceived endorsements of wine in the Bible, some could see a conflict when Scripture warns about the use of wine and strong drink.
Proverbs 23:31 makes perhaps the strongest case for a command to not use alcoholic wine. While some Hebrew scholars point to the difficulty of the translation to English, there is little dispute that the verse gives a prohibition to even look on fermented wine in this context. Proverbs 20:1 is another verse condemning the use of wine and strong drink. Virtually every mention of wine in the book of Proverbs is a warning about the use of alcoholic beverages. Wisdom says stay away from it.
An interpretation tool known as the “law of first mention” would lead us to believe that the use of wine as a beverage is not a good practice. Genesis 9:20-25 tells of the sad account of Noah drinking wine, becoming intoxicated and bringing a curse upon his grandson. Drunkenness is universally condemned in Scripture (Ephesians 5:18).
Those who refrained from the use of alcoholic drink were commended and used in a great way. Numbers 6 tells of the Nazarite vow that even went beyond abstinence from alcohol to forbid the use of grapes and raisins. The Rechabites were commended by the Lord for obeying their father in abstaining from wine (Jeremiah 35:14). John the Baptist was great in the sight of the Lord and did not drink wine or strong drink (Luke 1:15).
Civil and spiritual leaders are told to abstain from alcohol as a beverage (Proverbs 31:4; 1 Timothy 3:3). Daniel refused to drink wine and God blessed his conviction (Daniel 1:8). Evidence abounds that God is pleased when people avoid alcohol as a beverage. His blessing can and will fall upon those who refrain from imbibing.
Context
Without too much appeal to history or extra-biblical material, evidence exists that shows the ancients used a very different beverage than today’s wine. Several techniques were practiced to prevent or delay the fermentation process. Storage in a cool place extended the life of grape juice. This could have been done in caves and wells. Boiling prevented the fermentation of grape juice.
Wine was diluted for consumption. Scholars say that it varied from 1 part wine/4 parts water, to 1 part wine/20 parts water. The latter was more water purification than cutting the strength of the alcohol.
Word studies in the original language point to the possibility of generic usage of the words translated “wine.” Some scholars say “yayin” and “tirosh” (Hebrew) and “oinos” (Greek) can mean non-fermented, non-alcoholic drink (Isaiah 16:10, Joel 1:10). “Tirosh” in some English versions is translated “grapes” (Micah 6:15). In the same verse “yayin” is translated “wine.” Cider is an English word that can mean alcoholic or non-alcoholic juice. “Wine” as translated in most English versions could refer to fermented or non-fermented liquid.
There is biblical evidence that the ancients drank non-alcoholic “wine” or what we would call “grape juice.” In Deuteronomy 32:14, Moses said the Israelites drank the “blood of the grape,” not an alcoholic beverage. Perhaps the greatest example of grape juice use is found in Genesis 40:11. Here grapes are pressed into a cup and given to Pharaoh to drink. This “pure blood of the grape” could not have been alcoholic. Jesus avoided the use of the word “oinos” when He instituted the Lord’s Supper. He referred to the “fruit of the vine.” Was this euphemistic or did Jesus use a word that would avoid the endorsement of an alcoholic drink? We cannot be dogmatic either way.
Contentions
Those who advocate a Christian’s use of alcohol as a beverage point to New Testament passages to contend for their view. Four particular places of contention:
The wedding at Cana (John 2:1-10) – Advocates of beverage alcohol say that Jesus turned the water into alcoholic beverage. Since “oinos” could be non-fermented, the drink could have had no alcoholic content. Habakkuk 2:15 would seem to condemn promotion of alcohol use to the point of drunkenness. The wedding participants were already apparently intoxicated. Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence in the text that Jesus drank the wine, whether it was intoxicating or not.
“Drink a little wine for your stomach’s sake” (1 Timothy 5:23) – Again, two reasonable explanations help us understand the circumstances. First, Timothy must have been a total abstainer, because Paul told him to no longer drink only water. Secondly, alcoholic drink was used as a medicinal agent. Several times in Scripture wine or strong drink is employed as an antiseptic or anesthetic. For whatever reason, Paul recommended wine for a medicinal purpose. This is not beverage alcohol.
“Jesus was a winebibber” (Matthew 11:18, 19) – Advocates of alcohol as a beverage might say that Jesus drank alcoholic beverages; therefore we should be free to do so. Jesus was not a winebibber any more than John the Baptist was demon possessed. The critics of Jesus had slandered John. They had no credibility.
“The Lord’s Supper element is wine” (1 Corinthians 11:20, 21) – The Corinthians were guilty of the wrong attitude toward the Supper. It is not too great a leap to think they would be guilty of using the wrong element, a beverage with alcoholic content. The Corinthians were not known for their orthodoxy. Factions in the Corinthian church practiced open immorality in the membership, sectarianism, and the abuse of spiritual gifts.
Christian Liberty
Can a person drink alcohol as a beverage and be a Christian? Yes. Is it best for a person to drink alcohol as a Christian? No. The question is not, “How much liberty do I have in my lifestyle?” The question should be, “How much can I seek to please the Lord Jesus and be the best testimony for Him?”
Some behavior is regulated. Theological adherents to the regulatory principle may say that alcohol use is not forbidden; therefore I am free to participate. Some behavior is regulated by precept where the Bible says, “Thou shalt not.” In other areas behavior is regulated by principles. The horrible practice of slavery was defended from Scripture because the Bible not only did not specifically forbid it, but actually gave guidelines for the practice of it. Virtually everyone sees the Bible teaching that slavery is not the best for societies seeking to live out Christ’s law of love. Abortion, tobacco use and even marijuana use are not specifically forbidden by name in Scripture, but biblical principles are clear on these practices.
Some professed believers and even ministers of the gospel are advocating alcohol as a beverage as a Christian right or liberty. They would say to call for total abstinence is legalism. Legalism is the observance of outward rules for self-exaltation. Christian spirituality is the performance of outward conduct for Christ’s exaltation. Some who advocate abstinence become prideful in their practice.
Abundant warnings are found concerning exercising liberty:
1 Peter 2:16 – “…not using liberty as a cloak for vice,”
2 Peter 2:19 – “While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.”
Galatians 5:13 – “For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.”
Corinthian Principles
Certain teachings that the Apostle Paul used to help the believers at Corinth have been called “The Corinthian Principle.” This is making conduct choices on the basis of how it affects others, how those choices affect you and how it advances the Kingdom of God. Applying these principles to the use of alcohol should bring every believer to the position of abstinence.
- Spiritually weak Christians will stumble if we exercise our liberty in the use of alcohol (1 Corinthians 8:13, 10:23, 24).
- The potential of alcohol abuse and addiction is present with anyone. The best route is abstinence (1 Corinthians 6:12).
- Unbelievers can be distracted from Christ by a Christian’s exercise of liberty in the use of alcohol as a beverage (1 Corinthians 10:23).
Arguments can be given that someone somewhere will be offended about almost anything. This is true. However, the use of beverage alcohol in our current American culture will violate at least two of three principles on a regular basis.
Conclusion
In the Baptist Faith and Message, Article 15 mandates that we seek what is best for our culture. For society’s benefit and the advancement of the Kingdom of God believers should practice total abstinence from alcohol as a beverage. All followers of Jesus Christ should live holy and separate in the world (1 John 2:15). Our focus in life should be the Lord Jesus, not our liberty.
Jim Richards is the executive director of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. For more insights from Scripture, read The Bible Speaks on Alcohol.
The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission works to fight substance abuse across the country. If you would like to learn more about this important issue, additional resources are available here. If your church is interested in purchasing materials on substance abuse, please visit our online bookstore and erlc.com.
Further Learning
Learn more about: Family, Addictions, Substance Abuse
80 comments (post your own) feed
1 On Aug 30th, 2006, at 2:45pm, seba wrote:
Good article! Especially the second half. The argument for “non-fermented drink” is not necessary. It is also a stretch. The writer mentions the interpretation tool of the “law of first mention” but we must also remember the “simple reading of the text”. Wine is wine. I abstain not because the Bible teaches abstinence from alcohol but becuase of the reasons given in the second half of the article. The “non-fermented” argument causes many to lose credibility. Again, it is not necessary (or believable).
2 On Aug 31st, 2006, at 5:24pm, Jack wrote:
I suppose that the reasoning and content of this article is what prevents me from ever being a ‘good’ Baptist. Praise God for other Christians who do not insist that we all surrender our firearms - simply because people die from gunshot wounds. Just because the heathen abUSE something that God has created ‘good’ (I Tim. 4:4) and a “blessing” (Deut. 7:13,14), we Christians should not fear to USE it responsibly (rather than simply giving it up to the world as a spoil of the devil).
I understand that the Pharisee’s really did have good intentions when they posted the ‘fence’ 10 feet back from the true, biblical, limit. Do we really want to go there - even if it is well-intended (for the sake of our ‘witness’)?
3 On Sep 13th, 2006, at 2:52pm, Mike wrote:
I think your conclusion about the “winebibber” comment is a stretch. Obviously Jesus was not a drunk and not “given to wine” as is the meaning of winebibber; however, the passage states directly before that that the Son of Man came eating and drinking. Are we seriously to assume that the drink was not alcoholic? If He was only drinking water, why would they think he was a drunk? Your argument rests on the notion that what they said about John was false; therefore, this statement is also false. But what about the “friends of publicians and sinners"… is that false too? I doubt it.
more in the next comment........
4 On Sep 13th, 2006, at 3:00pm, Mike wrote:
Now I do not mean this as an offensive statement, but it sounds to me like your conclusion was drawn first and then you built an argument around it.
One of your opening statments “In reality, few responsibly use alcohol.” is also your opinion. I know many people who would agree with you because of the statistics of break-ups, parties, etc. But next time you go out to dinner count the number of people in the restaurant that are having a nice glass of wine or one beer with dinner. That happens responsibly in every restaurant in the world every night, but this is not in any kind of statistical count.
one more coming.....
5 On Sep 13th, 2006, at 9:25pm, Mike wrote:
I recently tried to tell this to a relative who shares your opinion and he adamantly kept referring me back to his work parties where everyone got drunk and how those kind of examples are the majority of people out there. He could not see or understand my point about coming home after work and having a single beer occassionaly or the example I just mentioned about restaurants. And I believe that you, just like my relative, are STARTING at that viewpoint and then finding “backing” in the Bible.
Am I arguing for liberties and that I need to drink? No… I simply am arguing for a Bible first perspective on life. From what I see many arguments Christians make against alcohol can be broken down into their own belief first, Bible second.
6 On Sep 19th, 2006, at 10:29pm, cajes, rolando wrote:
In my understanding 1 timothy 5:23 is not alcoholic wine.
7 On Sep 23rd, 2006, at 4:06pm, Hugh Odneal wrote:
My son was killed by a drunk driver on July 23, 1985. It seems this would provide a valid reason to side with the Baptist doctrine that “drinking alcohol is a sin and wrong.� However I don’t because I find no scriptural support for the doctrine.
Jesus used his first miracle to make wine. Jesus drank wine and instructed others to drink wine at the Last Supper. There are many more examples. My first question is would Jesus do these things if it were a sin or wrong to consume wine? The Bible is inerrant and we are not to attempt to change the meaning to suit our desires. This is adding to the Bible which we also are forbidden to do. Zmy second question is from the position SBC has taken and that Baptist church covenants promote, would Jesus be allowed on a SBC committee or welcome as a member of a Baptist Church?
two more coming.
8 On Sep 23rd, 2006, at 4:21pm, Hugh Odneal wrote:
The article states the Bible is not clear, but the Baptist position is clear, on alcohol use. But what does the Bible say about alcohol use and the believer? There are over 200 scriptures on abuse of alcohol , but only twice on abstinence and for specific reasons, in Prov. 31: 4 as to kings and also in Nu. 6:3 in the Nazirite Law. However once the Nazirite vow was completed the Bible states it is all right to drink wine Nu. 6: 20. In Prov. 31: 4 the Bible also states rulers should not crave beer.
In Gen. 9: 20-27 we read Noah was drunk, but is that the source of the curse? In verse 24 we read it was because “what Ham had done in dishonoring his father.� As a result of this dishonor Noah placed a curse on Ham’s son, Canaan and his descendants. The rest of the family was not cursed. In fact Noah blessed both Shem and Japheth because they honored him and covered his nakedness. Neither did God curse Noah for being drunk.
one more
9 On Sep 23rd, 2006, at 4:34pm, Hugh Odneal wrote:
The Bible is clear on this subject as it teaches over and over proper use not abuse. This is true of all things God has given us, us them properly. A few example from scripture on instruction of proper use are; in requirements for elders and deacons the Bible states “not given to drunkenness� (I Tim. 3: 3) or “not indulging I much wine� (I Tim. 3: 8). If it were a sin, was wrong, it caused people to stumble, etc., the Bible would simply say do not consume alcoholic beverages. God in fact is saying it is all right to use alcoholic beverages, with self control (Tim. 3 and Titus 2:2).
In Acts 17:11 we are told to examined the scriptures for truth. Would God indeed say don’t abuse when He really meant don’t use? The Baptist position on this seems similar to the rules and regulations Jesus condemned the Pharisee’s of in regard to God’s Word vs man’s tradition Mat 15:6 b.
10 On Sep 29th, 2006, at 5:53am, Josh wrote:
Notice that all of these comments are from the same 4 people? I really appreciated the article. I also believe in total abstinence. Church, get serious about serving God and quit hanging onto the world. Noone had to tell me that alcohol was wrong, when I trusted Jesus Christ as my Saviour, I KNEW it was wrong, so I gave it up. That was 16 years ago. Truly, you CAN live without it! :-)
11 On Oct 27th, 2006, at 8:21am, Jerry Alexander wrote:
As Christians, we are to be Christ-like and according to Scripture, Matthew 26:29, “But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” we to should not drink until with Christ in our Father’s kingdom.
12 On Oct 28th, 2006, at 8:12am, Eric wrote:
I kinda feel neutral on the subject. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with drinking in moderation according to the scripture. However, if someone wants to obstain from doing so then I would think that God would be very pleased with that choice. However, I think it was Paul who said that it is better not to get married. Of course it is also not a sin to get married if one chooses to do so. I believe that drinking alcohol in moderation should be viewed the same way.
13 On Nov 16th, 2006, at 4:24pm, Keith wrote:
Came across this article through a word search while researching this topic and want to say thanks for the synopsis and giving the conclusion that a great many Biblical scholars have come to. Like it or not I found the Bible is quite clear on abstinance of “alcoholic” drink. I just can’t see the “creator” of the universe making something that is “decaying” good??--kind of like “leaven”. Opinion, I know.
14 On Dec 21st, 2006, at 1:51pm, Keith Klamer wrote:
I’m not a Baptist but I commend this open and frank discussion on a “disputable matter” among Christians of all persuasions… If pressed, however, I would agree with with the writer who said the teaching of the Bible on this matter is clear: (I paraphrase) “Use this blessing, but do not abuse. And do nothing to make your brother stumble or dishonor God.”
Amen and Cheers!
15 On Jan 21st, 2007, at 3:37am, Janae Lukezech wrote:
Why is it that christians in our culture want to ride so closely on the fence between the world and righteousness? It seems that so many professing “Christians” want to have as much of the world as possible and still be on the safe side spiritually. It’s and all-about-me attitude and not Christ centered at all. I really appreciated this article because it is something I personally have questioned quite a bit. I have saved friends and unsaved friends Just tonight we had a sledding party and they were ALL drinking. It makes my heart sad to see my believing friends acting just like my unbelieving ones. What ever happened to being separate and putting off our old self? CHRISTIANS: we need to listen to our loving Holy Spirit and I’m sure if you truly listen you will come to the general conclusion of this article and that is the same thing Paul said, “All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable”. Stand up for Christ and be different. People will notice.
16 On Mar 29th, 2007, at 4:34am, kimberly loomis wrote:
I don’t understand how one can say ‘do not take alcohol at all’ when that is clearly NOT taught in the Bible. Many commented that they cannot see why Christians would want to drink at all or that in order to stand up for Christ we need to be “different”. They say that this is a self-centered approach and riding the fence. But to say something is wrong simply because it makes us uncomfortable, or it has been what we were taught all our lives and not because it is explicitly spoken against in the Bible is selfish and legalistic. Oh how different we DO look to the world so high up on our pedistals of non-Biblical rules and regulations!!
Also, the line in the article that few people use alcohol responsibly is an opinion and a statement that gave little credibility to the rest of the article.
17 On Mar 29th, 2007, at 10:02am, Janae wrote:
Well, all I can say to reply is that I have personally seen a pattern (I know you think I’m being legalistic but I’m speaking from experience with not only myself but many other “christians"). The more into drinking and alcohol christians become, the less love for Christ they have and the further away from his purposes they fall. Plus, in the Old Testament, the priests were to have no strong drink - EVER. Also, there was to be none in the temple. Okay, so fast forward to New Testament. WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and WE are to be Priests. So, you do the math.
18 On Mar 29th, 2007, at 12:37pm, Keith klamer wrote:
Yes, we are priests of the New Covenant ... but priests who are free to eat and drink what we will, not bound by Old Covenant dietary rules, like not eating pork, mixing milk and meat, etc. etc. Think of Peter’s vision of the hooved animals descending from heaven and Jesus’s admonition that “it is not what goes into a person that makes him unclean; it’s what comes out of him” ... (I paraphrase.) So enjoying strong drink would again be acceptable for today’s priests, getting drunk is not.
19 On Mar 29th, 2007, at 2:16pm, Kimberly wrote:
YES! I was going to comment also that Jenae’s comment completely ignores the New Covenant and the freedom of Christ. The issue is not Christians being “into” alcohol, it is Christians NOT being into daily Bible study, meditation on God’s word, prayer and theological study. Any sin will rear it’s head when we are not constantly rumenating on the Living Word. It is not a more alcohol, less Christ problem! It is a less Christ, more sin problem. You can say the same for over eating (gluttony, anyone?) We are statistically the fattest people in the world, but do we require of Christians to hold to a certain caloric intake or to abstain from all high fat/high calorie foods? Nope.
20 On Apr 14th, 2007, at 2:30pm, Justin F wrote:
It seems that every passionate argument that I hear from an individual who believes that to consume any alcohol is a sin, they always have to resort to some type of tactic that is based upon “what I have seen,” or “my experience has been.” This is the LAST place we are to look for authority in determining our Christian practices. We do not have the privilege of determining our rules for faith as we go along. We have been given the Scriptures to use as our guide. To arrive at the conclusion that consuming alcohol is a sin, you have to literary and exegetical gymnastics with the text. You have to import you own preconceived notions of what is right and wrong into the text and from there out into culture, as opposed to pulling truth from the text, letting it form your opinions and then affecting culture.
21 On May 23rd, 2007, at 1:54pm, Brian B wrote:
I abstain - and for many reasons. That said, I believe many people start with a preconceived position and argue that position with their proof-texts. I see this not only for those who abstain, but for those who argue for alcohol use. The passage that probably has the most bearing is Rom. 14 (esp. the conclusion in vv.20-21.) Paying close attention to this passage in our present situation, I cannot do anything but abstain. But, because of vv.2-3, I make no judgment on another’s conscience in this matter. If you partake, please take seriously the effect it may have upon a new believer who may have struggled with alchol abuse. Experience is not the basis for our beliefs, and the way we feel can be misleading, but my experience with alchol has shown me that I am better off without it. Finally, those in my life that I am most worried about causing to stumble is my children and for that reason I do not want to send any mixed signals, so I abstain.
22 On Sep 4th, 2007, at 12:00pm, dana b wrote:
it is clear that this is an extremely “controversial” issue among believers. I believed in abstinence, then I chose to believe that “a drink” with dinner was acceptable, although I was convicted that it would prove to be difficult to witness to an unbeliever,a child or a new christian who had come out of a life that might have been dominated by alcohol. Because of certain circumstances that our church is now faced with,I have once again chosen abstinence for myself. The number one reason being I must be faithful with all that God has entrusted to me; if I buy a drink with the resources God has given me I am supporting an industry that is destroying a nation and its people. My one little drink may not make a big difference to that industry, but it makes a big difference to me. God said to come out from among them and be separate. How will you explain that one drink to them?
23 On Sep 24th, 2007, at 9:40am, Frank Lee wrote:
“...I am supporting an industry that is destroying a nation and its people.”
With that mindset, Disney isn’t the only one we should be boycotting...but every fast food chain, major television manufacturer, gaming company, and sofa maker.
The next SBC resolution should be “Abstinance from any napping after a Sunday morning service...”
Gluttony and Sloth are deadly sins too; just look at our nation currently.
Let each of us prayerfully communicate with the Lord on this issue, and what HIS will for each of us would be. Maybe some ARE called to abstain fully, but let’s not pretend to legalize it all under the pretense of it being Biblical. A Pharisee is not what I am looking forward to becoming…
I hope the SBC can re-evaluate this issue at a later time.
BTW, while I may occasionally have a glass or wine or beer, I’d rather just have a big-ole glass of ice cold milk myself. :)
God Bless.
24 On Sep 25th, 2007, at 11:41am, Jason H wrote:
To borrow a statement from another, “why is the Church so consumed with seeing how much hell we can fit into our lives and still make it to heaven?
25 On Sep 25th, 2007, at 12:05pm, Jason wrote:
Amazing!!
In a world full of people dying to be set free from the ills of alcohol, we have a church full of people trying to justify ways to be free to alcohol
26 On Sep 25th, 2007, at 1:44pm, Keith Klamer wrote:
Jason:
The moderate use of alcohol is not seen as “hell” in the Bible. Our example is Jesus himself, who drank alcoholic wine (Luke 7:33) but was accused of being a drunkard by the Pharisees.
As for “making it to heaven”, we are saved from hell by faith alone, not by our righteous living.
Your brother in Christ,
Keith
27 On Sep 25th, 2007, at 7:25pm, Kimberly wrote:
Justification does not need to be made!! We are justified by faith! (gal 3:8) We would not need to stand up for ourselves if legalism did not make it necessary.
28 On Sep 26th, 2007, at 7:06am, Jasonq wrote:
I didn’t say we wouldn’t make it to heaven. I know how we are saved. Its just shameful that we are more concerned about how much worldliness we can maintain than we are about how much holiness we can obtain. And there is not one bit of textual evidence that Jesus drank alcohol. I know that alcohol is not condemned with a “thou shall not” but you need to use something besides the “Jesus drank” card to make you feel better about your decisions. “We have been set free from sin and made slaves to righteousness”. While we are trying to figure out how much hell we keep in our lives, people are dying and spending eternity there. I think that needs to be the issue. What we know Jesus did-died for sinners to be saved and rose again so sinners could be justified.
29 On Sep 26th, 2007, at 1:10pm, Frank Lee wrote:
“...there is not one bit of textual evidence that Jesus drank alcohol.”
Yeah, He probably just had every jug of water turned into wine and then just had a Sprite for Himself at that wedding.
And after passing around the Communion Cup, he probably just set it down without drinking that either. The disciples probably would have been offended at that point.
While I would never use a freedom to make a brother stumble, “...why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience?”
My best guess is that you (Jason) should probably not engage in a sip of wine at this time. Just from your comments, it sounds like this freedom cannot be trusted with your hands. Best to just be safe…
Thx.
30 On Sep 26th, 2007, at 4:24pm, Jason wrote:
I’m out,but..
Thanks for the article. I think it was well written with both sides of the argument represented and the truth presented. That is the proper way to study and teach the Bible. We must keep in mind though that when we look into the perfect law of liberty to observe ourselves, the outcome should not be to determine what we can or can’t do but what we must do that Jesus our Lord would be glorified.
oh, and being concerned about holiness and sanctification doesn’t make me a legalist.
31 On Sep 27th, 2007, at 8:41am, Keith Klamer wrote:
Jason:
Read carefully the King James and NLT version of Luke 7:33. Note that John the Baptist, having taken a Nazerite vow, abstained from certain foods and alcohol. Then note what Jesus said, i.e. that the “Son of Man” came both “eating and drinking.” We know Jesus is referring to alcohol because of what he just said about John the Baptist neither eating (i.e. fasting) or drinking wine. We further know this is true because Jesus was accused of being a drunkard by the Pharisees.
The point was, it didn’t matter what Jesus and John the Baptist ate or drank. Judge us by our actions, Jesus said, not by what we eat and drink:
NLT:
33 For John the Baptist didn’t drink wine and he often fasted, and you say, ‘He’s demon possessed.’
34 And I, the Son of Man, feast and drink, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of the worst sort of sinners!’
35 But wisdom is shown to be right by the lives of those who follow it. “
32 On Oct 9th, 2007, at 9:05am, dana b wrote:
it is interesting that you would refer to a text where Jesus is speaking to pharisees, I believe Jesus is not making a point about drinking alcohol, but simply pointing out that the pharisees would not acknowledge the hardness of their own hearts since they rejected John the baptist (and his life:fasting/vow)and they also rejected Jesus (and His life:eating/drinking)It is human nature to justify my sin,God laid down a clear line it is only our sinful nature that causes us to say “did God really mean for us to not sin or can I can I just bend a little bit from what is right. I know that we do not live under the old covenant where GOD instructed His people to observe carefully all His commandments,(I know drinking alcohol is apparently not clear?)but did GOD really mean we dont need to carefully observe ALL HIS word? and you are probably right,we as so called CHRIST followers should boycott more than disney,but why be different?
33 On Dec 19th, 2007, at 2:31pm, Danny Johnson wrote:
So if we’re going to rely on the old testament to dictate our actions in regard to alcohol, then please consider the following:
Deuteronomy 14:26
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
34 On Jan 3rd, 2008, at 10:50am, dana b wrote:
clearly to understand that vs. I must go back to vs. 22, ok its a ceremony to fellowship with God and honor Him for the blessings of the year that one might learn to fear the LORD your God always.If we allow the O.T. to dictate then consider the following: PVB.20:1,PVB.23:29-35 and PVB.31:4-7, then again lets consider the N.T.,1Peter 2:9-12,1Peter 1:13-16 we will all most certainly give an account for our life, entirely; so tell me, is Gods word suggested activity for my own whims and desires(complete with excuses for my behavior)or is Gods word commands for me to follow?
35 On Jan 11th, 2008, at 3:01am, Kimberly Loomis wrote:
The spiritually insecure don’t count moments in time, they count rules. The spiritually insecure don’t trust the Holy Spirit, they trust rules. The spiritually insecure don’t live to glorify God, they live to glorify their pride. There is no scripture that says alcohol is a sin. Just drunkenness.
I am having a really good micro-brew with my husband. We’re having a wonderfully initmate conversation about continuous worship, glorifying God with our daily lives and how fast our kids are growing up. And you are telling me that we, in this moment, are sinning? If this is a sin, we do it boldly, and glorify God all the more.
36 On Jan 13th, 2008, at 6:46pm, dana b wrote:
those who are endeavoring to grow spiritually are seeking to understand and follow God’s commandments; to have our minds transformed and live by God’s standards. seems that 21st century christians want to accept Jesus then throw out the O.T. as rules and history,and pick through the N.T. for vs’s that make everyone feel good. all the while calling everyone a pharisee who might have enough problems dealing with sins common to all people, with out seeing a need to add someething in to our lives that might be a stumbling block to others,which incidentally is sin.Jesus did not come to abolish the commands of God,He told us to keep them,and He gave a warning for those who caused others to sin.
37 On Jan 14th, 2008, at 9:34am, kimberly wrote:
Are we really living our lives avoiding THINGS just in case we might possibly cause someone to stumble? KNOWINGLY causing a brother to stumble is the sin. Let me give you an example. I am rather well endowed in a womanly way, physically speaking. I cannot do anything to hide it or cover it up. What I can do is to make sure that I don’t wear clothes to accentuate or draw attention to myself in that area. But, again, I can only do so much. My just being there at the grocery store could cause a brother to stumble, despite my best efforts to cover up. Am I responsible for that? NO! Our bodies are the same as alcohol. Something that was created for good, but is misused because of the fall, but can be redeemed by us who have the Holy Spirit in us and the Word in our hands to discern and moderate and check ourselves and the motives of our hearts with the authority of Christ. The Bible does not give giant church conventions that authority, it gives it to us.
38 On Jan 20th, 2008, at 11:56am, dana b wrote:
I agree,knowingly causing a brother to sin,is the sin. You seem to take great care in your physical appearance so you don’t cause them to sin. We are not only obligated to keep our brother from stumbling,we also should not,by our behavior deter the lost from salvation.The lost world demands perfection from the saved,tho this is impossible we should conduct ourselves so accusations prove false,and do not hinder Gods work in the lives of others.God created our bodies,He did not create alcohol.Perhaps you missed the opening of this article,under CONTEXT,Biblical wine is explained.The Bible clearly states what relationship we have to authority,and our individual responsibilities.The sbc is not the only denomination that feels this way.
39 On Jan 22nd, 2008, at 6:51pm, kelley Lee wrote:
As I am reading these comments, I continue to learn more and more how much of a burden we can place on believers regarding this subject. Sure, we are not to be stumbling blocks and so if my Christian friends who don’t drink are over, I don’t have it out. As well as if my believing friends who believe modern Christian music is evil, then I don’t have that on when they are over either. It is about being true to what the Holy Spirit in YOU is ministering to you about. It is also about unity among the church body. The Scriptures, I believe truly support moderation in all things. If we struggle with certain sins of overuse than we ought to abstain. It is a choice one must make between you and God. My conflict personally arises when I have prayed and the Lord tells me one thing and man says another. Is abstinence from alcohol going to be added to the multiple litmus tests we use to judge righteousness? Let us seek His counsel alone in this matter. Kelley
40 On Jan 26th, 2008, at 6:24pm, dana wrote:
so i just gotta ask; if drinking is ok, where do you draw the line? can i be a believer and own a convience store that sells alcohol,or how about just owning a liquor store? after all drinking is not the issue,right; its just drunkeness that is wrong. what exactly is the profit of lowering my inhibitions and skewing my judgement? as little as .01% of alcohol can acomplish that. so do you limit yourself to one drink, figure out your ability to metabolize alcohol so that you are not making poor judgements? explain to a 5 year old a drink is not the problem, drunkeness is. when they are older and are offered alcohol they will know its not a problem unless they get drunk. its a mixed message. so you dont drink around christians that dont approve of it, do you tell them you do or just hide it? that seems like a burden to me, sin likes secrets
41 On Jan 30th, 2008, at 3:55am, Rod wrote:
First off, thank you all for your input here, I have enjoyed the read, and all the opinions put out there.
Dana, your comments really caught my attention. I am the father of two precious little girls the oldest of which did just turn 5 two days ago. She does very much understand that it is ok to have a responible drink (she has asked upon occasion “Daddy can I fetch you a beer). I have explained to her that it is allright for an adult to drink a little alcohol, but just like everything else in life it must be in moderation. This sends no mixed messages, in fact it helps her to understand the truth. I would far rather she understands the truth, than to grow up thinkig it’s some taboo thing that we are trying to hide from her, because we all know what happens all to often in the teen years, despite all attempts at Godly parentinig. It is no different than teaching any other subject, the truth is the best.
42 On Jan 30th, 2008, at 9:24am, Keith wrote:
I too have found the reading enlightening as to just how everyone thinks. I will choose not to get into the theology (enough said over the past two years) but I do want to say, as a father of two 20 something daughters, a young son and as a youth pastor for 30+ years that consistency with parents is critical to not sending mixed signals...yet I know it is naive to think that because a 5 year old see’s Daddy and aids Daddy that she currently has the discernment to determine “responsible” (whatever that is). That is something that is modeled at this age and learned when reasoning begins....teen years....and so we must be careful the foundations we’ve laid and the doors we’ve opened way before that time. I hurt with way too many parents over this and more in our out of control, self-endulgent society. And just so you know I am not calling any of you out of control...I am simply saying that is the way it is all around us.
Blessings
43 On Mar 12th, 2008, at 1:48pm, Juli wrote:
Alcohol is a poison. It alters your brain chemistry whether you feel it or not. It may start off by giving you a pleasurable feeling, but then will progress into vomiting (which is your body’s way of ridding itself of the poison), alcohol induced seizures, or death from overdose. Why would our God condone a poison? Even for casual consumers...I struggle with the thought of God saying, “It’s okay to have just a little of a very deadly drink.” Helpful comments would be appreciated.
44 On Mar 12th, 2008, at 3:23pm, Beeg wrote:
One note that needs to be made: alcoholic drink was necessary in ancient times if for nothing else but to purify the drinking water, and for medicine. Today, however, we have choices. Add to that modern processing which allows for greater alcohol content in today’s drinks, and it appears we are comparing apples and apple sauce here. See Norman Geisler’s article on wine in ancient times online for some historical perspective.
45 On Mar 12th, 2008, at 3:27pm, Dennis Bell wrote:
Aside from all arguments about alcohol, most would agree that the Bible teaches we should steer away from evil. Maybe we could even argue the mention of alcohol in the Bible. There is no doubt where God stands when it comes to evil. Take time to look at the promotion of alcohol and the effects it has in society. The evil is apparent. Argue the point if you wish, but the outcome is the same. This truth came way to close to my family when my dad was shot and killed as a result of alcohol influence in his life and the man who shot him. My hope is that we stand united against any evil for the cause of Christ.
46 On Mar 12th, 2008, at 5:45pm, Barry Wright wrote:
Good article. I am saddened by many of the responses which attempt to support drinking alcohol. Here is the truth of the matter: Alcohol does not edify Christ - people do. When we partake and our thinking is impaired, how can we glorify God? It does impair...this cannot be denied. It slows all of our faculties. How is Christ honored in this? It lowers our inhibitions which in turn can lead to us speaking hurtful words to those around us. I have never seen a family held together by alcohol - only torn apart and broken up. How about Romans 14 for some light reading. It mentions something about not being a stumbling block. You never know who is watching. A person who struggles with the sin of drunkeness may be sitting in your pew on Sunday morning, then see you tossing one back at a local pub. He may use your example as a means to justify his life dominating sin. What is more important - Christ or the chalice?
47 On Mar 13th, 2008, at 1:11pm, Kimberly Loomis wrote:
Someone in the pew next to me could struggle with pornography and use the image of my body as a means to justify his life dominating sin as well, even if I’m not showing cleavage or wearing tight clothes. Do I start wearing mumus? Do I get a breast reduction because I might cause someone to stumble? Do I not wear flip-flops because I may be around someone with a foot fetish? Where does the burden of responsibility start? The Greek word we are dealing with is proskomma which means literally an obstacle against which one may dash his foot and translates in 1 Cor 8:9 (Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.) “the spiritual hindrance to another by selfish use of liberty.” The word careful translates to “exercise thought”. The word weak (astheneo) translates literally sick, diseased, an impotent man and means to be feeble, without strength, powerless.
48 On Mar 13th, 2008, at 1:24pm, Kimberly Loomis wrote:
So we are to exercise thought to avoid selfishness out of love for those who are feeble, sick and without strength. So if someone goes to a bar, excercises thought and intentionally orders one beer and one beer only he is in the clear, provided his other actions line up with scripture. He is not responsible if another man sees him order the one beer and then orders five for himself. That man is responsible for himself. The act of ‘causing a brother to stumble’ when we use it correctly describes a person who intentionally flaunts his liberty in the face of those who have not yet gained it themselves. It is a choice that is made, not something we may do unintentionally and unknowingly. The Greek words are verbs and imply taking a position under one’s foot, not merely just happening to be there.
49 On Mar 14th, 2008, at 11:12am, Janae wrote:
Something many should consider is the possibility that they are not truly regenerate followers of Christ. There are a lot of passages of scripture where Jesus talked about true and false conversions. One of the most frightening passages is in Matt. 7:21-23 where he say’s “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of iniquity!’ Clearly, not everyone who thinks they are in God’s kingdom has truly been converted.
50 On Mar 14th, 2008, at 11:23am, janae wrote:
The only one that is truly converted is the one who falls on good soil, with the key component being understanding that comes only from the Holy Spirit. What will He say to you on that glorious day when we see His face?
51 On Mar 14th, 2008, at 2:37pm, Barry Wright wrote:
“The act of ‘causing a brother to stumble’ when we use it correctly describes a person who intentionally flaunts his liberty in the face of those who have not yet gained it themselves. It is a choice that is made, not something we may do unintentionally and unknowingly.”
Just as you said. Perhaps Kimberly you need to take heed of your own counsel.
52 On Mar 14th, 2008, at 9:58pm, Steve wrote:
Does the Bible absolutely prohibit drinking? Probably not, from what I can see. However, does drinking glorify God or improve our witness? Absolutely not! It seems to me that we as American Christians are terrified of being seen as “different”. We desperately want to blend in with our culture rather than appearing “strange” or “weird”.
We could learn a lot about passionate Christian living from our brothers in China, where a person risks his freedom and often his very life to worship Christ. Or from our sisters in Saudi Arabia, where a decision to follow Jesus can lead to execution. Maybe we need a little more persecution here in America to get our focus and our hearts back to where they need to be!
53 On Mar 17th, 2008, at 5:20pm, Michael wrote:
At the risk of being redundant, I would like to make a few points: 1) We should glorify God in everything we do; 2) Alcohol is NOT biblically prohibited, except in certain situations; 3) Drunkeness is prohibited. It appears to me that many people confuse drinking and drunkeness. I would not tell someone they must abstain from alcohol, no more than I would tell them they must abstain from food or sex. I would say a person should not engage in gluttony, adultery or fornication. These are perversions of things which are good. Anything God has created can be perverted. Drunkeness is the perversion of drinking alcohol. However, if you are convicted to not drink alcohol, then you should not drink, and glorify God with that decision. If you are convicted that drinking alcohol is OK, then you should drink in moderation and glorify God in doing so. Having said that...I think I will get a drink!
54 On Mar 18th, 2008, at 12:16am, Kimberly wrote:
Why can’t we eat and drink the the glory of God?
55 On Mar 18th, 2008, at 6:19am, Barry Wright wrote:
Steve & Janae I agree with both of you. I do not advocate some legalistic solution of this matter. I do believe that we better serve Christ as His ambassadors when we follow His example and sacrifice our liberty for the sake of Him and others. Thus the reason for my voluntarily abstaining from the consumption of alcohol. Just as our Lord lived a life of denying Himself those things which He had every right to hold dear, He condescended to us and came here to live out His passion.
56 On Mar 18th, 2008, at 2:17pm, Kimberly wrote:
I’m out, thanks everyone who commented and praise Jesus that we live in a country that allows us to share our opinions and disagree on points like this! I hope that no one here thinks of themselves as better than the other...we all have something to learn from one another!! May the Light shine on you!
57 On Mar 18th, 2008, at 10:15pm, Lee wrote:
Try reading God Gave Wine by Kenneth Gentry and/or Drinking with Calvin and Luther by Jim West. Both of these books address most of the issues dealt with here.
Mr. Gentry seeks what all the Bible, “the whole counsel of God” says rather than just one or two verses which justify a subjective position. Scholarly and well worth the read.
Mr. West’s book demonstrates, that contrary to what Prohibitionists might like to tell you, godly men of ages past enjoyed fermented beverages in moderation. It will make you want to abstain from alcohol in moderation. Another good read.
I have read them both along with the good book itself. Is sin from the heart or from some object? If the heart allows itself to be controlled by an object, that can be sin. The object is not the problem. The heart is.
58 On Mar 25th, 2008, at 4:14pm, Stephen wrote:
Once again, I believe this is legalistic fundamentalism trying to disguise itself as careful biblical scholarship and exposition. I understand the author’s motives, but I he must be disagreed with and reckoned with. The Church had allowed alcohol consumption for nearly 1900 years without any serious objections. The modern fervor against it, especially for Baptists, is a new phenomena since the Civil War.
59 On Mar 26th, 2008, at 4:44pm, Barry Wright wrote:
Does anyone even know how to define legalism anymore? Erickson offers a thoughtful definition of the word: “The slavish following of the law in the belief that one thereby earns merit; it also entails a refusal to go beyond the formal or literal requirements of the law.” To voluntarily give up a liberty for the benefit or edification of another does not constitute legalism or fundamentalism. It is called sacrifice. Our society is so bent on freedom and rights today that we cannot even look past our noses anymore and look to our neighbor’s needs. I gladly abstain from this thing so I do not give a person cause to stumble. It is a charitable thing to do.
60 On Mar 27th, 2008, at 11:33am, Michael McCray wrote:
To gladly abstain from a thing that you normally would want is sacrifice. To require others to do the same is not. It is one thing to abstain because you are convinced it is what you should do; it is quiet another thing to require others to do the same.
61 On Mar 27th, 2008, at 4:38pm, Stephen wrote:
Such arguing,bickering, and internal division over trivial matters, when viewed against two millenia of church history, is one reason why I left the SBC and joined the Episcopal Church and why so many of my ex Southern Baptist friends in bible college and seminary also joined other denominations. We were tired of the denomination waging war and persecution on anyone who did not adhere to a narrow view of true, pure Baptist orthodoxy and lifestyle according to an older militant generation of conservatives and fundamentalists. Whoever didn’t comply with them in sublime uniformity were branded liberals or heretics or carnal Christians. Now the war is being waged on Calvinists and those who cherish their liberty. Maybe one day, not too far from now, the once great SBC will be cut down to a few thousand people who all think alike after they’ve run everyone else out, and then they’ll be happy. Good job SBC, Americas largest Protestant body, but not for long.
62 On Mar 27th, 2008, at 8:58pm, Barry Wright wrote:
I agree Michael. It is odd though that medical professionals have a series of four questions they have patients asks themselves to determine whether or not alcohol is a problem in their life. The first question is this: Do you become defensive about drinking alcohol? I am seeing a lot of people here on this webpage who are defending their drinking and are more concerned about their Christian liberties than they are concerned for their neighbor. This has all of the indicators of lust; of placing one’s self before Christ. It is possible for someone to not drink in excess and yet still allow alcohol to be an idol in their lives.
63 On Mar 28th, 2008, at 8:46pm, Barry Wright wrote:
Stephen...No one forced you to become a Baptist, and no one forced you to leave either. You did so by your own choice. I am a fairly young person (38 if you call that young) who happens to love the Southern Baptist denomination for the positions to which it adheres. I can assure you that I am not labeling anyone who disagrees with me. I am merely trying to understand why it is so hard for a person to demonstrate love to their neighbor through sacrificing a liberty? Nothing is being dictated here. And how does my inquiring relate to waging war by the way?
64 On Mar 31st, 2008, at 9:48am, Michael wrote:
It is sad that Christians spend an enormous amount of time arguing over things that may not be a hill on which to die. I do not think this one is. Despite some of the things for which I disagree with the SBC, I am proud of our heritage of trying to be faithful to the authority of Scripture and the Great Commission. As far as this debate is concerned, I do not want alcohol to be a problem for me or for anyone else. If one is convinced they should abstain, I certainly support that decision. I do not hold that opinion, but I hope my actions will do the same.
65 On Apr 1st, 2008, at 8:53pm, stephen wrote:
Barry-I’m not directing any of my comments toward you, please don’t feel offended. Also, I did not mean to insinuate I was forced to anything, I was simply explaining why I stopped being a Southern Baptist. Also, at 38 I don’t really consider you a part of my younger generation, 18-30. I’m 24. No offense to you, lol. But I assure you this, people your age and younger are either leaving the SBC or never joining it. I am not alone in my convictions or ideas. The average age of people attending the annual SBC meeting have been rising steadily since the early 1990s. I went to the undergrad of Southeastern Baptist Seminary and I had friends, after a few years there, transferring left and right and becoming Presbyterian or Reformed like crazy. These trends are just the beginning. This slipping of control and influence and power over hearts and minds is what the older SBC leaders are really scared of, and its evident. God bless!
66 On Apr 2nd, 2008, at 1:20pm, Barry Wright wrote:
Stephen,
Thanks for your humility. No offense taken. I am interested in understanding more about your experience. I think it could truly help me understand what younger generations are thinking and how they (you) perceive the SBC denomination. If you would, please email me at . I promise this will not be an attempt to have you change your position...I truly want to understand what it is that you are seeing.
Thanks. Hope to hear from you.
67 On Apr 6th, 2008, at 2:05pm, Stephen wrote:
Barry - you got it, I will send you a good letter as soon as I get a chance, God bless!
68 On Apr 10th, 2008, at 12:43pm, RGL Avant wrote:
In regards to the SBC’s stance on alchol use all I can say is this: You will always have problems when you go beyond the bounds of Scripture in your law.
69 On Apr 20th, 2008, at 3:17pm, Derek wrote:
Not to get too argumentative here, but I can’t help but notice you rely on an awful lot of speculation to explain away the support passages in scripture.
Most recent reputable studies suggest that moderate alcohol consumption is good for heart health. And further, the Christian tradition has a long history of not only imbibing alcohol, but celebrating it as a gift from God, and it’s really only post-19th century American Christians that support its total proscription.
If you feel alcohol is antithetical to your walk with Christ, then by all means, abstain. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it’s certainly a wise, healthy choice. And it’s certainly also wise to refrain from participating when a weaker brother or sister is present. But my study of Scripture has convinced me that outright forbidding of alcohol is completely non-biblical.
Just something to chew on.
70 On Apr 23rd, 2008, at 4:03pm, Barry Wright wrote:
Derek,
I do not feel alcohol is antithetical - I know it IS antithetical to the Christian walk. I can find just as many studies showing that alcohol consumption is bad for one’s health as you can find saying they are good. (Alcohol is a leading cause of birth defects - how do you reconcile that?) Here’s the main question (again) that no one has tackled: How does insisting on indulging in our own Christian liberty demonstrate love for one’s neighbor? All of the arguments presented on this page that are pro-alcohol are argued from the position of “self”. I want to hear an argument that is pro-alcohol consumption from the position of loving one’s neighbor - and use Scripture to back it up.
71 On Apr 24th, 2008, at 11:07am, RGL Avant wrote:
Why are you willing to put an unbiblical view of complete abstinence around the neck of your neighbor who is only drinking wine w/his meal? Or just enjoy a beer w/friends?
By the way the burden is on you to show that the Bible forbids the moderate use of alchohol.
72 On Apr 24th, 2008, at 11:19am, Frank Lee wrote:
...and I want to hear an argument that is pro-PIZZA consumption from the position of loving one’s neighbor - and use Scripture to back it up.
Otherwise we will have to boycott Little Caesars too.
Your argument doesn’t seem to hold water. Especially if that water was turned to wine by Jesus Himself.
73 On Apr 29th, 2008, at 7:17pm, Barry Wright wrote:
You are missing my point which is this: We should not do anything that causes us to be a stumbling block to our neighbor. If that includes pizza consumption (because some do struggle with gluttony, and if this is a weakness of theirs) then we ought not to do it for their benefit. It is obvious to all that alcohol has a detrimental effect on society - it does not edify, it does not lift up, it does not improve one’s moral condition. Throw this back in my lap - that’s fine. The reason you do so is because you cannot make an argument showing how your need for alcohol demonstrates love towards your neighbor. You are right, you are free to drink. The question is though: Is it necessary to glorify God? Not all things permissible are approved of by God. Divorce is a prime example of this.
74 On Apr 29th, 2008, at 7:54pm, Stephen wrote:
Barry - did you ever get my email, I needed a response from you first. Thanks.
75 On Apr 30th, 2008, at 4:35pm, Barry wrote:
Hey Stephen...I didn’t receive it yet. Looking forward to hearing from you.
76 On May 1st, 2008, at 2:50pm, RGL Avant wrote:
You are saying that alcohol has no benefits while the Bible(which recognizes the dangers & temptations) calls wine a blessing & the absence of wine a curse.
The problem is not that the moderate use of alcohol causes the unbeliever to stumble but causes problem for the person who has been a believer for awhile & has been convinced that any alcohol use even moderate use is a sin. Its not my unbleiving neighbor next door who has a problem w/my moderate use of alcohol but my Baptist neighbor across the street who tells everyone else that a real Christian will not let any alcohol touch his lips.
Maybe if we got rid of the unbiblical legalism which says that any alcohol use is sin then there will be no stumbling.
77 On May 2nd, 2008, at 11:33am, Frank Lee wrote:
Barry Wright, I definitely agree that gluttony is a major problem in America, believer or not, unfortunately. One for which I would be chief at this time…
And well stated, RGL Avant.
Thanks for the comment.
78 On Jul 3rd, 2008, at 6:44pm, Anna Weeks wrote:
I would like your opinions on the alcohol subject.
I was raised SB and was taught always that the church did not condone drinking or selling of alcohol. With
a presidential candidate professing to be southern Baptist, what message are we sending when his family’s wealth is related to the sell of alcohol?
I think it’s is a conflicting message
79 On Jul 7th, 2008, at 5:51pm, RGL Avant wrote:
I can only assume that you are talking about McCain since Obama is UCC(United Church of Christ). how is his families’ wealth connected to alcohol?
But what difference does it make?
Youj are assuming that alcohol is inherently sinful. The Bible does not support yr assumption.
80 On Jul 10th, 2008, at 10:25am, Jason White wrote:
John the Baptist avoided wine altogether; therefore he avoided opening himself up to the charge of being a drunkard. Matthew 11:18,19 says John did not drink, but Jesus did drink and so was called a drunkard. We all know Jesus was not a drunkard, but the point is this: Jesus did not choose to live so as to avoid opening himself up to the charge of being a drunkard, as John did. Whether or not the wine he was drinking was alcoholic is beside the point. The point is, Jesus opened himself up to the charge by behaving in a way John didn’t.
So behaving in a way that opens you up to being viewed as a drunkard is not, in all contexts, the same thing as being a “stumbling block.” The Bible says not to be drunk, not to be addicted, and not to be a stumbling block. Let the believer decide, by his calling and context, whether or not to drink moderately. Freedom, within limits, makes Christ more attractive.