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	<title>The Ethics &amp; Religious Liberty Commission | Court shakes California twice in three weeks | Comments</title>
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    <description>This feed provides all comments on &quot;Court shakes California twice in three weeks.&quot;</description>
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    <copyright>&#x2117; &amp; &#xA9; 2008 ERLC</copyright> 


		
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      	<title>Comment 1</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment1</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment1</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Carlson writes..
</p>
<p>
..."To lose the battle here would only broaden the seismic shift in the culture and help to ensure that the dismantling of the family continues.&#8221;
</p>
<p>
And in all earnestness I have to ask, what exactly is he so very afraid of?&nbsp; 
</p>
<p>
How will two men marrying and raising children dismantle Mr. Carlson&#8217;s family in any way?&nbsp;   
</p>
<p>
Why is there so much fear about families that might look differently than his?&nbsp;  Why are our gay families of less value to him and the Baptists?&nbsp; What makes a family?&nbsp; Who gets to decide?&nbsp; Mr. Carlson?&nbsp; What makes a home?&nbsp; Why is Mr. Carlson&#8217;s home valid and mine invalid?&nbsp; 
</p>
<p>
Why is there all this fear about people loving and having homes that might not fit the SBC model?&nbsp; 
</p>
<p>
How will gay marriage affect the SBC?&nbsp; 
</p>
<p>
How many gay married couples with children does Mr. Carlson personally know?&nbsp; I imagine not many.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:50:10 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 2</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment2</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment2</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>From the opinion of the court.
</p>
<p>
..."permitting same sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite sex couples of any right and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage"&#8230;
</p>
<p>
the opinion goes on to explain that the obligations and benefits of marriage apply equally in both situations ....
<br />
moreover&#8230;
</p>
<p>
...."retaining the traditional definition of marriage and affording same sex couples only a separate and differently named family relationship will, as a realistic matter, impose appreciable harm on same sex couples and their children, because denying such couples access to the familiar and highly favored designation of marriage is likely to cast doubt on whether the official family relationship of same sex couples enjoys dignity equal to that of opposite sex couples.&#8221;
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:48:41 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 3</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment3</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment3</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>the opinion goes on to explain there is a long history of disparagement of gay and lesbian persons and our families and excluding same-sex couples from the legal institution of marriage will very likely reflect
</p>
<p>
...."an official view&#8221; that gay couples and families are of &#8220;lesser stature than comparable relationships of opposite-sex couples&#8221;....
</p>
<p>
...and finally that by retaining marriage exclusively for opposite sex couples may have the effect of perpetuating the premise....
</p>
<p>
.....“now emphatically rejected” by California “that gay individuals and same sex couples are in some respects ‘second-class citizens’ who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite sex couples.”....
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		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:59:03 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 4</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment4</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment4</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>As a Baptist, I support God design for marriage as communicated in Scripture(Mt.19).&nbsp; As a citizen, I desire for marriage to be strengthened not weakened by everything being called marriage.&nbsp; Studies(Twin registery study of Australia) do not support a genetic cause for Homosexuality, so society can discourage any behavior. Homosexuals can not marry someone of the same sex, but neither can I.&nbsp; I can&#8217;t marry my cousin or someone that is under-aged.&nbsp; No where on a marriage certificate does it ask if you &#8220;love&#8221; the person.&nbsp; The state supports what helps our society, NOT the individual.&nbsp; The state has the right to reward the relationship that benefits our society.&nbsp; The homosexual &#8220;marriage&#8221; arguement is based only on individual benefit- not societical. This is basicly another attack on the Biblical worldview that has made our country great. Our country will have a worldview I want a Biblical Worldview verses an atheistic worldview for the good of all.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:32:14 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 5</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment5</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment5</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not suprised that the Southern Baptist pastor stood up in support of marriage in the safety of their convention.&nbsp; It is so easy to stand for something when it cost you nothing.&nbsp; My question is:&nbsp; Will the pastors and the SBC support(financally) the CA and FL marriage campaigns and the Legal effort in our Nation&#8217;s courts to protect marriage?&nbsp; If a pastor says he supports &#8220;Biblical Marriage&#8221; then put your money where your mouth is! Or as James (NT) puts it-"be doers of the word and not hears only.&#8221;  If we don&#8217;t support this effort the Biblical worldview in our nation will be lost!
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:46:18 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 6</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment6</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment6</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Fletcher writes.."The homosexual “marriage” arguement (sic)is based only on individual benefit- not societical."(sic) but he apparently has not read the opinion of the court.&nbsp; 
</p>
<p>
The court clearly states the benefit to society that marriage affords both same sex and opposite sex couples.
</p>
<p>
For example the financial benefit to spouses when one partner becomes unemployed or disabled is beneficial to society by keeping people out of the social services network, the security or a loving home when one partner becomes ill can prevent people from losing homes and becoming indigent, the added stability and love of a two parent home when raising children benefit society by raising more solid children, all these are beneficial to society and the families enjoined in those relationships.
</p>
<p>
These examples plus many others are cited by the justices in the opinion as to why same sex marriage is beneficial to society.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:52:20 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 7</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment7</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment7</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>In response to Ken&#8217;s comments in Post 5:
</p>
<p>
I can&#8217;t help but think of some of CS Lewis&#8217; thoughts in <i>Mere Christianity</i>:
</p>
<blockquote><p>People say, &#8220;The Church ought to give us a lead.&#8221; That is true if they mean it in the right way, but false if they mean it in the wrong way. By the Church they ought to mean the whole body of practising Christians&#8230; 
</p>
<p>
If that happened...then we should find the Christian solution for our own social problems pretty quickly&#8230; 
</p>
<p>
But, of course, when they ask for a lead from the Church most people mean they want the clergy to put out a political programme. That is silly&#8230;
</p>
<p>
The clergy are those particular people within the whole Church who have been specially trained and set aside to look after what concerns us as creatures who are going to live for ever: and we are asking them to do a quite different job for which they have not been trained. The job is really on us, on the laymen&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>
(Pardon the brief excerpts, tight on space!)
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:50:37 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 8</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment8</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment8</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>To many people it may be upsetting that the court would overturn the will of the people. It is one of the great paradoxes of a country that claims that it is run by the will of the people. However, America is so much more than that. We have created a society where even people who may be unpopular or targeted for whatever reason, have the same constitutional rights as every other American. The California Supreme Court upheld the rights that their state constitution gives to all California residents, regardless of sexual orientation. The courts and constitution are designed to protect minorities from the abuses of the majority. This theme has be repeated through history, and the current debate over gay marriage seems very similar to the past debate over interracial marriage.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:25:46 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 9</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment9</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment9</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Furthermore, there is a clause in the U.S. Constitution called &#8220;Full Faith and Credit.&#8221;  The constitution is pretty explicit that a contract made in one state can be transported into another and still be valid. Otherwise, there would be a major hinderance to interstate commerce, and a great weakening of the Union. Therefore, to me, it seems extremely unconstitutional for a state to declare that they won&#8217;t recognize a marriage performed in another state because it didn&#8217;t fit their definition of marriage. Heterosexual marriages are portable from state to state as homosexual marriages should be. Its in the Constitution. This point has already been made in the Supreme Court in the 2004 case Lawrence v. Texas.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:31:33 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 10</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment10</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment10</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The homosexual “marriage” arguement is based only on individual benefit- not societical.&#8221;
</p>
<p>
-Respectfully, spelling correctly is the beginning of individuals being willing to take someone seriously. I believe you mean &#8220;argument&#8221; and &#8220;societal,&#8221; respectively.
<br />
-I find the content inherently problematic, and here&#8217;s why:
</p>
<p>
 1) Your argument is contradictory. You are trying to argue that marriage (between a man/woman, in your case) promotes stability within a society, it &#8220;benefits&#8221; society. Lesbian and Gay individuals are only slowly being able to legally enter into such unions to promote stability in society. Essentially, we cannot benefit society &#8220;legally&#8221; if we are not given the chance;
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		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:04:19 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 11</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment11</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment11</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the spelling errors, I was born that way, so please, be tolerant.&nbsp; Getting back to the issue, (CA supreme court ruling homosexual marriage), I disagree with the majority ruling. This was a very close vote (4-3) and the CA state supreme court has disagreed with the opinions of several liberal State Supreme courts (NY, MD, VT, WA. IN) on this issue.&nbsp; Plus they over ruled the will of the people expressed in prop. 22.&nbsp;  The majority opinion is capable of being wrong.&nbsp; I think we would all agree that the 1857 Dred Scott case which over turned congress and ruled that slaves—“that the United States Congress had no authority to prohibit slavery in federal territories”shows that judges can be wrong.&nbsp; This ruling was the court redefining marriage to something that it has never been.&nbsp; Now you may feel that a redefinition was need, but this is not the purpose of the judiciary, but the legislative branch.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:04:14 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 12</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment12</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment12</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Respectfully, you failed to address my point, Mr. Fletcher.
<br />
Californians had previously voted twice to enact legislation that would legalize civil marriage between same-sex couples, only to have such legislation vetoed by the state&#8217;s governor (ironically with the suggestion that the matter be turned over to the state Supreme Court). Judges can indeed be wrong, Mr. Fletcher. However, in the context of this case, the people had previously shown *legislatively* that they wished to have same-sex marriage in their state. 
</p>
<p>
Also, your argument is logically unsound. You state &#8220;This ruling was the court redefining marriage to something that it has never been.&#8221; If we were to apply this severely flawed attempt at logic to other civil rights cases we would still have slavery, women would be property, and only white, land-owning men would be allowed to vote.
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		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:39:40 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 13</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment13</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment13</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Fletcher states..."The majority opinion is capable of being wrong.&#8221; .
</p>
<p>
...and I wholeheartedly agree...the court found that the majority of public opinion can be wrong (as in Jim Crow)
</p>
<p>
 they note changing public opinion on domestic partnerships and civil unions, which basically function as marital contracts therefore they should be called marriages because calling it something else perpetuates a negative stereotype about gay relationships and calls to question their validity. 
</p>
<p>
How will gay marriage undermine other people&#8217;s marriage?&nbsp; The court found that it in no way affects opposite sex marriage so what do people fear about gay marriage?
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		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:33:26 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 14</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment14</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment14</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>It is fear of the &#8220;unknown&#8221; and &#8220;the other,&#8221; Mr. Valdes. Plain and simple fear.
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		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:28:03 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 15</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment15</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment15</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Hudgins, I think sound reason would admit that The will of the people can best be measured a direct vote on a single issue(prop 22). The governor who veto the Homosexual marriage legislation was also put in office by the people, but the least connected to the people are the judges.&nbsp; The three examples that you gave are support actually supports my argument, that injustices are best corrected by the amendment process and not judicial activism. Slavery was ended by the 13th amendment. The voting injustices were corrected amendments. A women&#8217;s right to vote was fixed by the 19th amendment, age requirements by the 26th amendment, and the color issue by the 15 amendment.&nbsp; Women have never been property- no need for a constitutional fix. 
<br />
I will be out or pocket for several days, but do have a good weekend and a enjoyable 4th.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:26:49 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 16</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment16</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment16</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Dan Valdes,
</p>
<p>
Surely by now you know that Christians base their opinions and beliefs on Biblical principles and ideals. With this said, our opposition to the Courts decision should come to no surprise to you. 
</p>
<p>
Lets make a broader statement, people(whether publicly or privately) can make wrong decisions. This decision is in opposition to our beliefs on marriage. We don&#8217;t hold Judges opinions higher than anyone else&#8217;s, we hold the validity of their decision in comparison to scripture higher when such case arises. So we believe that the Judges opinions are wrong at times, because we see that they oppose Biblical standards and truths. So no matter how articulated their opinions are, they still stand in opposition to our views.&nbsp; That doesn&#8217;t answer a question but I hope articulates clearly that no matter what the courts reasoning is, this decision will forever stand in opposition.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:16:44 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 17</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment17</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment17</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>In regards to your question in post #13. How long did the courts research &amp; investigate? Because excuse me but a few years or even a few decades of observation doesn&#8217;t adequately reveal the full repercussions of an action of any sort. So for the courts to say they found &#8220;that it in no way affects opposite sex marriage&#8221; doesn&#8217;t convince me. The cultural acceptance of such ideals causes friction between subcultures. The Christian belief that homosexual relationships are not in the best interest of humanity will never change. It has biblical truth to it, unlike slavery and racism/separation. As its normality begins to set in more laws will follow preventing such vocalized beliefs against it. Homosexual marriages degrade our culture as a whole, no more than unmarried heterosexual sex. Since we don&#8217;t believe such marriages can exist biblical, it gives the cultural appearance that marriage is an obsolete institution for its main purpose. I await your response Mr Valdes.
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		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:01:23 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 18</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment18</link>
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      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Dear Jarrot,
</p>
<p>
As to your question,  &#8220;How long did the courts research &amp; investigate?&#8221;  First the courts decide cases based on precedent so their research goes back through the history of court proceedings, sometimes even citing cases from other eras in time, however, in this particular case the court dealt namely with cases in the U.S. system.
</p>
<p>
The court didn&#8217;t adjudicate this case on religious tenets but rather upon civil liberty and equality issues.&nbsp; They found&#8230;
</p>
<p>
&#8220;Our state now recognizes that an individual&#8217;s capacity to establish a loving and long-term committed relationship with another person and responsibly to care for and raise children does not depend upon the individual&#8217;s sexual orientation,&#8221;  &#8220;An individual&#8217;s sexual orientation&#8212;like a person&#8217;s race or gender&#8212;does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.&#8221;
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		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:22:04 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 19</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment19</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment19</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Jarrot writes, &#8220;Because excuse me but a few years or even a few decades of observation doesn’t adequately reveal the full repercussions of an action of any sort.&#8221;
</p>
<p>
-I agree. However, we didn&#8217;t undergo multiple decades (or even a century) of social science research to determine the  individual and societal effects of ending slavery, giving women the right to vote, and putting an end to racial segregation in our schools (which was, by the way, a *judicial* decision).
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:02:24 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 20</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment20</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment20</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Homosexual marriages degrade our culture as a whole, no more than unmarried heterosexual sex.&#8221;
</p>
<p>
-So work equally hard to propose and pass a constitutional amendment against heterosexual sex outside of marriage and institute so-called &#8220;church discipline&#8221; as indiscriminately against those who would engage in such activities as those who would be involved in same-sex (sexual) relationships. Christian immorality results, I would argue, from cherry-picking Biblical verses/passages in order to further solidify fear and abhorrence of particular minority groups.
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		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:21:06 CST</pubDate>
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      	<title>Comment 21</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment21</link>
		<guid isPermaLink="true">http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment21</guid>
      	<description><![CDATA[<p>Just to include into our factual evidence for the spirit of debate, Representative Mark Leno from a San Francisco district twice introduced a bill into the state legislative in California that would allow &#8220;gender neutral&#8221; marriages between two people. Once was in 2005 and the other in 2007. It passed both times by comfortable margins and the governor vetoed it both times. So the will of the people of California isn&#8217;t so dramatically against same sex marriage or they wouldn&#8217;t have re-elected their representatives that passed the aforementioned bill in 2005 and therefore allowing it to pass again in 2007.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 20:04:35 CST</pubDate>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:08:16 CST</pubDate>
		
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      	<title>Comment 22</title>
      	<link>http://erlc.com/article/court&#45;shakes&#45;california&#45;twice&#45;in&#45;three&#45;weeks#comment22</link>
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      	<description><![CDATA[<p>It does not surprise me that this blog is riddled with comments from pro homosexual activists. I encourage Christians to be gentle as lambs and wise as serpents, but not deceived by what the Bible says on this matter. I will not be intimidated by demeaning remarks of those who support views opposing   moral and ethical opinions. Those who scream loudest may win this spiritual battle for marriage if Christians stand by and do nothing.
</p>]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:08:16 CST</pubDate>
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