The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission | The way I was born | Comments http://erlc.com/ This feed provides all comments on "The way I was born." en web-master@erlc.com ℗ & © 2008 ERLC Comment 1 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment1 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment1 Your comments are excellent and very informative and right on point.  I would offer another point.  As of my writing this email, I am not aware of a single element of information to substantiate the claim that homosexuals are “born that way.” While, there are probably some loosely connected anecdotal episodes in a homosexual’s life that “could” point to that person’s leaning toward a homosexual lifestyle, there is, as yet, no medical facts to support a genetic cause for homosexual behavior.  I am not a doctor, and I realize that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of studies pursuing this matter.  I firmly believe that these studies will do no more than conclude a connection between loosely connected anecdotal episodes and homosexuality.  The Bible is too clear on this matter for there to be any substantiation to the contrary.  Praise God for His Wisdom as revealed to us in His Holy Book.

In His Service,

Al Fransen

]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:52:49 CST Comment 2 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment2 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment2 Well for the first thing I noticed that it looked like a woman deacon made a comment.  Right there I see their problem.  They don’t understand or obey God’s Word. In His Word it says, that we (women)shouldn’t seek men’s titles.  Why would we need them anyway?  We can still minister to people in Jesus’s name.  Our place is not to teach a man anything except by example.  Then, why when HE says that a “practicing"homosexual will not be found in Heaven, is that hard to understand.  Our life is transformed when we come to know HIM.  He roots out all the sin and it’s guilt, and the need to go back to our vomit.  Thanks for the time and space to say my thoughts.  God help us all, we are in “sinner’s anonymous together.

]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:15:19 CST Comment 3 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment3 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment3 I agree and always have.  Why should anyone think they should get a “pass from God” so to speak for their sin, just because it is ‘politically correct’ in our [new and liberated] society ?  I can’t buy it, I don’t think many really do and I think it is a shame that many thousands are decieved by the flesh and do not realize they are condemed by the spirit, unless they seek God’s Grace. “His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain.” 1 Corinthians 15:10

Oswald Chambers reminds us “There is only one relationship that matters, and that is your personal relationship to a personal Redeemer and Lord”.

]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:58:56 CST Comment 4 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment4 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment4 Once the “Church” consisted of believers in Jesus.  They met for worship, discipleship, and outreach.  Converts were brought in for worship, discipleship and outreach.  Nowadays many congregationalists cannot worship because they don’t know God.  Neither can you disciple the lost!  But they will tell others where they attend and their non-Christian behavior puts a black-eye on that congregation.  The failed “seeker-sensitive” approach filled pews by Hollywoodish promotion but brought the world into the church...an unworkable mixture of darkness and light.  After years of this paradigm, we have practicing homosexuals imagining themselves as believers!  It is impossible to presume upon the Holy Spirit by praying for forgiveness before committing a sin!

]]> Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:51:20 CST Comment 5 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment5 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment5 How do pastors get around the clear condemnation of homosexual practices in the New Testament? Romans 1:26-32 includes a clear description of homosexual behavior, citing both males and females, and describes it as “vile”, “shameful”, and deserving of penalty (vs. 27). The entire passage of 1:18-32 deals with God’s wrath on unrighteousness, and homosexual behavior is included as an extreme illustration of unrighteousness. Homosexuality is a sin that, like every other sin, is forgiveable. “But because of your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed. He will repay each one according to his works.” Romans 2:5-6 (HCSB)

]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:01:02 CST Comment 6 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment6 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment6 Gary Ledbetter says.

."This selection of temptations is not also a selection of orientations; it lists a few urges of the one orientation toward sin. A desire to steal hubcaps off the parking lot of liberal churches would be condemned in a way that extramarital sex might not be in that same liberal church, yet both urges come from the same orientation—that of a selfish sinner.”

NO SIR!!  Stealing and sexuality are NOT THE SAME.  You folks will think up ANYTHING to bash the gays..

You just make yourself look silly and uninformed.

]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:39:50 CST Comment 7 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment7 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment7 Mat 5:28 (KJV)
“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a
woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in
his heart.”.....

but Mr. Ledbetter says…

“Is a thief condemned if he never actually steals? Of course not; deeds have a quality that desires don’t. Neither is a person guilty if he has a mere urge toward immoral sexual behavior.”

You decide.

]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:51:29 CST Comment 8 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment8 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment8 I agree with the concept that we are all born with the inclination to sin.  Whether we pursue those inclinations is another matter.

My point is this: Many homosexuals argue that they are born that way.  I disagree, but will not yet argue that point.  Even if they are, does that make it right?  What of the child who is born with Lukemia?  They are indeed “born” that way, but that doesn’t mean that it is a good thing.  In fact, cures for that condition are agressively sought after.  Why if not to rid them of a inherent “defect?”

In a similar scenario, if homosexuals are “born” that way, that doesn’t mean that they should remain in that lifestyle.  There is a cure, and that cure is found in Jesus Christ and He alone.

I welcome comments.


http://www.myspace.com/1peter315

]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:26:48 CST Comment 9 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment9 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment9 On Dec 12th, 2007, at 9:39am, Dan Valdes wrote:

Gary Ledbetter says.

."This selection of temptations....” You folks will think up ANYTHING to bash the gays.

Consider a quote from Rick Warren....

“Don’t be deceived: God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows he will also reap …” (Galatians 6:7 HCSB)

In other words, God will forgive you for what you have done, but he most likely won’t remove the consequences of your actions.

I remember my father telling me this on the day I told him my girlfriend was pregnant. He said, “God will forgive you, but that doesn’t mean he’ll remove the consequences of your sin.”

God forgives fully and unconditionally, but that doesn’t mean we won’t reap what we have sown.....

God often will bring our sin to light because he’s trying to bring us back to himself......and the crisis this creates compels us to journey back to God. (Consider Isaiah 6.)

Did Rick get it right ?  You decide.

jerry

]]> Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:29:47 CST Comment 10 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment10 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment10 Jerry you completely miss the point.  Mr. Ledbetter equates being gay with being born with a predisposition to steal.  That doesn’t hold water. 

Some people are born gay.  (like me) Some are born straight (i suppose like Mr. Ledbetter and perhaps you)

If you understand that you are born heterosexual, it should be easy to understand that some people are born gay.  That concept is a struggle for some people to grasp, however, for reasons that escape me.  It seems self evident on its face.

To pen an essay and equate innate sexuality with developmental inclinations to do harm is simply errant logic.  It’s overreaching on the part of the author.  He seeks religious justification for not accepting gay people into the fold. 

God bless.

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:20:08 CST Comment 11 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment11 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment11 Dan,
I think our minister is right..............
often times people are going to believe what they choose to believe, period !  Sometimes logic, common sense and the Word of God goes right out the window.
The point Rick Warren was trying to make, was that sin is sin, whether it be stealing, lying, fornication, unnatural sex acts or whatever.  And, we all sin everyday........unless someone can convince me that they worship God with all their heart, mind, strength and spirit every minute of everyday........because if they don’t, they are in sin.  But, we have a loving and forgiving God and He will forgive us each day if we ask for forgiveness and repent.
Blessings !

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:46:25 CST Comment 12 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment12 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment12 Jerry you still miss the point.  Why do you think your sexuality is okay and mine is not?  perhaps that is a better starting point. 

Why is it okay for your to express your sexuality in marriage, but withhold marriage from me? 

Why should I accept that my sexuality is equated with..."stealing, lying, fornication, unnatural sex acts” just because you think so?

And more to the political point, why should I accept that bias just because you or others elect to believe it on religious grounds? 

In other words, if you want to go to an antigay church - fine...but that doesn’t give you liberty to legislate antigay political policy based on your particular religious point of view.

That is what the SBC tries to do, to influence public policy based on their narrow view of the world.  We are not a theocracy...the last time I checked..

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:25:40 CST Comment 13 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment13 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment13 I disagree that people are born homosexual for 2 reasons.  1. My understanding of God is that God is love.  People are born with birth defects, but as Jesus said as to a man born blind, it wasn’t a result of the man’s sin nor his parents’- it was for God’s glory.  (Jesus had healed the man.) 2.  I believe that we are a composite of the people and things we have experienced in life.  A survey of the childhood social development and parental influences of practicing homosexuals will indicate several common causes to their homosexual development.  I pray that you will grow in your understanding of who God is, and then search your own experiences for the causes of your homosexual leanings.  When you realize that it wasn’t God, but you who have caused yourself to break God’s universal law against same-gender sexual activity, you will be free to confess, repent, and receive a new heart for God.

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:51:18 CST Comment 14 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment14 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment14 Dear Dr. John Boyd,

When did you become heterosexual, assuming that you are?  And what developmental processes lead you to that orientation?  I assume the same developmental rules apply to all people across time and space, is that your understanding as well?

Is your doctorate work in the field of human sexuality, childhood development, psychology or what exactly makes you so certain?  How do you arrive at your conclusions?  Thank you.

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:30:48 CST Comment 15 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment15 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment15 Dan,

Your disagreement with me makes perfect sense. You disregard the context of the column, though. Of course you agree with those who believe the Bible is true when it condemns all extramarital sexual behavior. My comment was aimed at those who claim to believe part of what Scripture says and disregard parts they consider hard. While we all are tempted to do that, it is never right if we believe God has spoken.

I don’t know if your tendency toward homosexual desire is innate or part of your nurture or will. I accept for argument’s sake that all three sources have a role in it. Even so, “I was born this way” or “I desire it” is no more an acceptable rationalization for homosexual behavior, which is at least self destructive, than for any other kind of negative behavior or self-destructive lifestyle.

The good news is that any of us can be freed from our sin and bondage to our appetites through Jesus Christ. I pray that you find that peace.

Gary

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:03:46 CST Comment 16 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment16 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment16 Dan,
It’s obvious that my communication skills are not so good.  I hate to use such a “tacky” metiphore, but God did not create Adam and Steve; he created Adam and Eve.
And as for “what you should accept from me”.........nothing !  You owe me no explanation at all.
And I’m not interested in “a political point” or “a religious grounds”. I’m not the one that will judge you when you die and when you do, politics or religion will have no bearing on your fate.  I’m not the one that has power of determining if you will spend eternity with God or without Him.  If you have an ax to grind with the SBC, so be it.  I’m not connected with the SBC.  My church does not exclude homosexuals......or anyone.  But, we do expect our congregation to live according to the Bible.  Not all do, but we still expect them to.  I don’t always live every minute of my life according to the Bible, but I try.
jerry

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:12:46 CST Comment 17 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment17 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment17 I and Adam’s entire race were designed by God to reflect His ideal for the species.  God created man and woman in His image, for His purpose of procreation.  Any departure from His ideal for men and women constitutes a perversion of His purposes.  Such departures, therefore are entirely the result of our sinful natures inherited from the Fall.  God has not made people to be homosexual, but they have acquired a bent for that particular sin either from life circumstances which have caused them to suffer from role and/or gender confusion, or as the result of unmet expectations concerning the opposite sex.  My Doctorate is in Pastoral Studies with concentration in counseling.

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:24:31 CST Comment 18 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment18 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment18 Dan, you continue to repeat the argument that there is no question that people are born gay. You Infer that if Dr. Boyd’s degree is not in human sexuality, etc. his opinions are invalid. Yet I have not seen anything that indicates you have a degree in those fields.

The authors of two of the earliest and best known studies on the “gay gene” (both of whom were gay men) later acknowledged that their studies didn’t find a gay gene and they both felt that one would never be found because human sexuality is complex and affected by many factors. Dr. Frances Collins headed the largest genetic study ever done – the Human Genome Project – and stated that they found many things but no gay gene.

He went on to say that people certainly are born with predispositions – which Mr. Ledbetter – inferred. But Dr. Collins said predispositions should not be confused with predetermination.

No scientific study demonstrates predetermination.

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:05:49 CST Comment 19 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment19 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment19 Yikes! My post above should have said “of course you disagree with those who believe the Bible...” Sorry. GL

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:54:01 CST Comment 20 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment20 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment20 Gary Ledbetter says/… “My comment was aimed at those who claim to believe part of what Scripture says and disregard parts they consider hard”

Hard like this Mr. Ledbetter?
Leviticus 20:13

NLT: (New Living Translation): “The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act, and are guilty of a capital offense.”

Who are you or the SBC to kill me or anyone else?  Who are YOU to sit in judgement just because you read it in the Bible?

Believe whatever you want in peace.  When it comes to politics, expect a fight.

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:20:40 CST Comment 21 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment21 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment21 Bob Stith wrote:
you continue to repeat the argument that there is no question that people are born gay. You Infer that if Dr. Boyd’s degree is not in human sexuality, etc. his opinions are invalid.”

No, I was curious about his credentials to speak with such authority on human sexual development.  He is not a scientist, he’s a theologian.  He has no expertise in human sexuality.  That is clear.  His OPINIONS are just that.

What I can share with you Bob is that I know that at not point or on a slippery slope that I turned gay.  I have always been sexually attracted to the same sex.  That is very hard for you perhaps because it flies in the face of your entrenched religious bigotry, but the fact remains.  I know myself better than you do.

I wouldn’t care what you think if you weren’t political and tried like the devil to keep gay people marginalized.

peace

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:34:10 CST Comment 22 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment22 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment22 Dan,

Lev. 20:13 is not hard. It’s Rom. 3:23 and 6:23 that are hard. You’re a sinner and I’m a sinner. Outside of Christ we’re lost and dead forever. That’s the stumbling block, not any particular or favorite sin.

This is God’s revelation, not merely my belief.

Gary

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:03:16 CST Comment 23 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment23 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment23 Gary Ledbetter says…

“Even so, “I was born this way” or “I desire it” is no
more an acceptable rationalization for homosexual behavior, which is at
least self destructive, than for any other kind of negative behavior or
self-destructive lifestyle.”

I don’t accept that being gay is self destructive. That is a false premise per se.

I would say being a self-loathing gay (like perhaps Larry Craig or Mark Foley) is very self destructive.

Further, it’s often religious bias against gay people that may lead some to hate that part of themselves.

In and of itself being gay is perfectly healthy and normal. 

It’s very sad that some people can’t fully integrate sexuality and their faith but more and more we are seeing that the old prejudices are falling away and thankfully so are most of those self destructive bathroom behaviours that Larry Craig engaged in.

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:35:58 CST Comment 24 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment24 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment24 Romans 6:23 For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord.

I see now you are speaking about faith.

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:20:41 CST Comment 25 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment25 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment25 Dan,

Sure I am. We are all speaking about faith because we speak of things we cannot know on our own. My faith is in the God who made us both and who has revealed himself in his Son, whose story and teaching is in the Bible.

Faith and truth are not contradictory things.

Gary

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:30:34 CST Comment 26 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment26 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment26 Dan you say that at no point did you decide to be gay and therefore others should just accept that. However it seems inconceivable to you that I could have a belief based upon hundreds of hours of careful study of the relevant texts. You simply cannot accept that just perhaps I really did want to know and understand what the Bible is saying regardless of whether I liked it or not. I have also spent time with the major arguments of gay apologists as well as the traditional texts.

You seem unable to believe that if I have honestly searched and studied and come to a different conclusion than yours that there can be any other explanation other than “you’re a bigot” or “you have political motives”. Your experience and feelings trumps everything else.

That leaves very little room for legitimate discussion of issues.

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:15:56 CST Comment 27 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment27 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment27 Dear Bob Stith,

It is not that my experience trumps all else but rather when an institution (the Southern Baptists) and some of the members therein equate us (gay people) with thieves, liars, fornicators, pedophiles and a whole other range of ill reputes it saddens me because that is an intentional misrepresentation of our community.

I believe the SBC does so for primariliary political purposes.

This is a political website.  I don’t think there is any argument on that issue.  Why would there be so many articles encouraging conservative political activism here if it were not so? 

When Exodus says “Change is Possible” they do not mean that you will no longer have same sex attraction.  One only needs to look below the surface to see that they offer little in the arena of altering sexual orientation.  They best they can offer is celibacy and self denial. 

Love in Action does not turn gay men straight.  Ask Rev. John Smid if one can end same sex attraction with prayer.

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:55:45 CST Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:11:27 CST Comment 28 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment28 http://erlc.com/article/the-way-i-was-born#comment28 Mr. Ledbetter says..."The good news is that any of us can be freed from our sin and bondage to our appetites through Jesus Christ. I pray that you find that peace.”

Thank you for your well wishes, although they seem to be delivered with a bit of a blunt tipped club. 

Likewise, I hope you find freedom from your sin and bondage and find peace as well.

However, please don’t consider my sexuality something I need to be delivered from any more than you need to be from yours. 

Love Dan

]]> Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:11:27 CST