Senator Lankford on being a Christian in the public square

In a time of intense political polarization, finding examples of faith-informed leadership that brings people together rather than pushing them apart can feel rare. That’s why today’s conversation between Brent Leatherwood, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, and Republican Sen. James Lankford from Oklahoma offers such a refreshing perspective on how Christian faith can shape public service.

Before serving in Congress, Sen. Lankford worked with students and families for more than 20 years in ministry. He was elected to the US House of Representatives in 2010 and has served as a US Senator since 2014. Senator Lankford,  is a native of Oklahoma where he lives with his wife and two daughters and is a member of a Southern Baptist church. 

Episode Transcript: Senator Lankford on being a Christian in the public square

Narration:

Welcome to The ERLC Podcast, where our goal is to help you think biblically about today’s cultural issues. I’m Lindsay Nicolet, and today we’re featuring a special conversation with Senator James Lankford.

In a time of intense political polarization, finding examples of faith-informed leadership that brings people together rather than pushing them apart can feel rare. That’s why today’s conversation between Brent Leatherwood, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, and Republican Senator James Lankford from Oklahoma offers such a refreshing perspective on how Christian faith can shape public service. 

Before serving in Congress, Senator Lankford worked with students and families for more than 20 years in ministry. He was elected to the US House of Representatives in 2010 and has served as a US Senator since 2014. Senator Lankford is a native of Oklahoma, where he lives with his wife and two daughters and is a member of a Southern Baptist church. 

Now let’s turn to Brent Leatherwood’s conversation with Senator Lankford.

Brent Leatherwood:

Hello fellow Southern Baptists. This is Brent Leatherwood, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, and today I have the privilege of being joined by my friend, the Senator from Oklahoma, Senator James Lankford. Many of you know Senator Lankford, but some of you may not be aware that he is a fellow Southern Baptist, and we thought it would be appropriate to just sit down for a few minutes and talk through faith in the public square because he absolutely does live out his faith and his convictions as he processes all the very complex and challenging issues in today’s Washington. So Senator, thank you for being with us.

Senator James Lankford:

You bet. Glad to be able to do it. Glad to be in the conversation.

Brent Leatherwood:

Well, let’s lead off with probably a question you get quite a bit. As a Christian in the political space, why is it important for Christ followers to be engaged in politics?

Senator James Lankford:

I have to tell you, it’s one of the funniest questions I got asked a lot when I first ran. I get asked some still today on it, but I was a 22 year youth pastor before I was elected into Congress. And that either encourages people or terrifies people based on their relationship with their youth pastor, that there’s a former youth pastor that’s now writing tax policy for the country. But there’s a lot of conversations that happened early on when people said, you are leaving the ministry, or they would say to me, you know, you’re really getting involved in really kind of dirty business over there and Christians should stay out of that. So it really pushed me to drive deeper into scripture and to be able to ask some hard questions because in 2008 and 2009, my wife and I, clearly sensed God calling us to run for Congress, we spent months struggling with that.

And God just kept saying to us over and over, come follow me. Come follow me. Come follow me. And so when I resigned my position and then announced I was running for Congress, we were really out there. And so when people challenged us, it drove me back to scripture and I drove me to a couple things on this. One is 36 of the 39 books of the Old Testament were written to, by, or about a political leader, 36 of the 39 books. If you look at a third of the pages of the New Testament, that is the book of Luke, in the Book of Acts, they were written to a political leader. Theophilus was the recipient of those original two books. And then if you even look at the ministry of Paul, when Paul is struck blind going to Damascus, he ends up in Damascus and Ananias hears from God saying, lay your hands on him.

And Ananias says, this is a bad guy, God, are you sure you want me to be able to go interact with this guy? And God says, yeah, I know who he is. He’s my chosen instrument. So the Jews, the Gentiles and the Gentile kings, and you see the rest of Paul’s ministry ending up speaking to Jews, speaking to Gentiles, and ending up in front of political leaders. So this is not new when you look through scripture on this. And for a lot of people that say, that’s dirty business over there, I always kinda laugh and go, it would be really strange of God to send light into dark places. So my first encouragement to people is, don’t pull away if that’s what God is calling you to, but also don’t lunge for it if he is not calling you into that role. Make sure you’re actually following God’s leadership and not just your passions of what’s on cable news tonight. And to say, I’m so angry. I’m gonna go do something on that. Anger’s not gonna drive us towards what’s better. Scripture’s very clear about that. But following God’s calling and actually representing who he really is in every place in society is a right calling.

Brent Leatherwood:

So you serve in the upper Chamber of Congress in the US?

Senator James Lankford:

Yes, yes. The upper center chamber, the the House of Lords up in, up in DC.

Brent Leatherwood:

Well you had, you had several terms in the house. And now you serve in the Senate. And I’m curious, what would you tell folks about why they need to in particular pay attention to the Senate as opposed to the House? 

Senator James Lankford:

Yeah, the Senate and the house are two entirely different bodies. And it’s funny, people just think it’s north side of the building and south side of the building, but they function very, very differently. The house is 435 members. It’s very fast. They can move bills very fast. The rules are different there. They’re up for election every two years. It’s a very noisy place on it. The Senate elections every six years, the procedure that’s set up in statute for the Senate runs, runs much slower on that. In fact, it has through the entire time of our constitution there to be able to run it. But it’s also very different ’cause the Senate does personnel and policy where the house just does policy. They just do making law. We do law making on the Senate, but we also do all the oversight for all of those cabinet officials. And we interact a lot more with the White House and a lot more foreign policy in the Senate. It’s just a very different set of roles.

Brent Leatherwood:

Absolutely. I would agree with all of that. So how do those big picture legislative decisions, the ones that you have, those meetings with the White House on, the ones where cabinet officials are coming to provide updates to you and you’re doing your oversight, how does that work its way down and affect local churches and the issues that our fellow Southern Baptists care about?

Senator James Lankford:

So, it is interesting, the Senate, one more thing about the Senate that’s different and it applies directly to what you’re talking about. The Senate rules require 60 people have to agree on something to debate it if we’re even gonna discuss it. We’ve gotta get 60 people almost always in our history. That means it’s a bipartisan conversation. That means both sides have to sit down like grownups and actually talk about something they disagree with and come up with an option. So it can’t be just a purely partisan issue except for very rare times and some tax and some budget issues. But almost always in the Senate, the rules require 60 people. Well, in church life we get the same effect. Everybody sits down in church and it’s very funny to me when I talk to people around elections, they’ll say, I sit next to someone in church who I really like and we our friends play together and everything else.

And then I drove past their house and they’ve got the wrong sign in their yard, you know, for the wrong person. I didn’t realize they were one of them on it. And it’s just this really funny thing that around election times you start seeing political preferences on it. But in normal life you sit down with people that many times you disagree with and you figure out how to be able to do life together on that. That’s the nature of it. And quite frankly, Paul over and over and again is challenging in scripture for us to be able to work through our differences in church life, to be able to make sure our differences don’t divide us, but our unity actually represents what Christ has done in each of our lives on it. We’re trying to be able to carry some of those things out in a Senate as well, where we don’t all agree state to state, much less party to party, but we’ve still gotta sit down like grownups and to be able to figure out how we’re gonna solve it.

Brent Leatherwood:

Do you find, I’m curious, given that dynamic in the Senate, and look, we all know we live in a pretty polarized time, but I’m curious if you, as such a convictional Christian who I think there are many examples where you’re not only espousing our convictions, but you’re also living out kindness to your neighbors, who are your colleagues in the Senate. Do they seek you out to help try and bridge some of those divides because they know you are a Christian?

Senator James Lankford:

I do get tapped on every once in a while and that, and quite frankly, I try to engage in that. Jesus was pretty clear when asked, what’s the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God with their heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is like it love your neighbor as yourself. There are people that for some reason believe that if you’re in politics, you should take that second part out that no longer applies in politics. It’s hit somebody in the face as hard as you can, as often as you can. It’s not love your neighbors yourself. Jesus didn’t put an asterisk on that and say, unless you’re elected, this doesn’t apply. That seems to apply everywhere. And so for me, it’s living those biblical principles and saying the cable news principles are not the Jesus principles. These are the Jesus principles. So if those are the Jesus principles, they apply everywhere and in every place and in every occupation.

So how do I live that here? Now, even when we have disagreement, and I do have very strong disagreement with some of the colleagues that I work with, and I voice that and they know that, but I should be able to do that in a way that understands, that’s a person created in the image of God who has value and worth inherently, that is my Samaritan neighbor and I’m going to love them as I love God, as I love myself on it, because that’s the biblical admonition. So when we’re trying to be able to reconcile what’s broken, again, that’s a calling from scripture. When I’m trying to be able to reconcile broken relationships or broken conversations, I come at it from a Jesus perspective as I think, quite frankly, all of us who are followers of Jesus, whether we’re in a manufacturing location, in an office building, or with a family at Thanksgiving.

Brent Leatherwood:

Amen. Well, I can attest that your reputation as a Christian, it precedes you. I can’t tell you how many times I have been in meetings on the Hill, even on the house side, where they’re talking about something that, you know, needs to get through the Senate that might be contentious. And individuals are routinely naming you as someone that they think obviously cares about these issues, but somebody that can help even convince those who might be opposed, the rightness of their cause. And I just think that’s truly a credit to you.

Senator James Lankford:

Well, I appreciate that. I’m no squishy, moderate. I have a very strong conservative perspective, but I also think you can be strongly conservative, work towards values. I think every heart, every family, every neighborhood, every race, every background, but also be able to speak in such a way that it doesn’t try to destroy someone else and who they are, but to try to say, Hey, I understand where you come from. I just strongly disagree. Let’s see if we can figure this out.

Brent Leatherwood:

Right. Well, so we’re about two months into a new congress. Republicans hold the Senate, the House and the White House commonly referred to as a trifecta. And you actually are now a member of leadership in the Senate. So, you know, thinking through, I think specifically pro-life issues, but maybe speak to others more broadly if you want, what are some of the priorities for the new Congress? 

Senator James Lankford:

Well, there’s a lot right now, and I would say for anyone who’s watching things in DC they know how fast things are moving right now as we’re working through just a ton of issues. But there’s a couple of big ones that rise to the top right now. We’ve gotta deal with tax policy because our tax policy as a country expires in December. So we’ve gotta be able to deal with that. So that’s causing a lot of just churn across the country. What does that mean if we don’t act, every small business, every individual in every tax bracket, their taxes go up and it’ll slow the economy down. So we gotta fix that. So that’s a lot. We’re doing a lot of work on government efficiency, quite frankly. There’s a lot of that conversation that’s happening out there to say government’s inefficient. Everyone knows it. But there’s been kind of this sleepiness, like one day we’ll get to that. I release a report every year called federal fumbles that’s identifying areas of waste trying to be able to challenge my colleagues to be able to take some of these on. President Trump’s taking this to a whole new level.

It’s like, no, we’re gonna fix it. We’re gonna fix it right now. It reminds me of when my stepfather came into my room one day and just threw everything on the floor away. He was like, yeah, you’re cleaning your room up. I was like, I’m going to the trash can to go get my stuff. I go and I get the hint, I get the hint. It kind of feels that way right now. Like okay, okay, okay, let’s get busy on it. So there’s been this general sense across Washington that says, okay, let’s start working on this. But there’s also a lot of other things that are actively working on this. For instance, defunding Planned Parenthood. We’ve all been very passionate to say we think every child is valuable. I don’t think some children are valuable and some children are disposable. I think every child is valuable.

Planned Parenthood is the single largest provider of abortion in the country. They’re also one of the largest recipients of Medicaid dollars that are coming down. Now those dollars can’t be used for abortion, but they actually sustain the clinics and everyone knows it where abortion is actually provided for. So there’s an effort to say, in our reconciliation work, while it’s all Republicans, can we try to take that funding away so that we’re not using tax dollars to be able to fund abortion. There’s a lot of conversation right now. In fact, we’ll be voting again on it, on trying to ever protect girls in sports. We can’t even believe this is a thing. You know, six years ago who would’ve ever thought that we’d have to take a vote to say that boys can’t participate in girls sports when we’ve actually created law in the past to make sure that we’re protecting both boys and girls sports, that people can actually thrive in that. But now we’re actually having to address some of those social issues as well and to be able to lean in. So there’s a lot of both tax and social issues that are in the conversation right now. Rightfully so.

Brent Leatherwood:

Well, you touched on one that’s a high priority for the ERLC right now, defunding Planned Parenthood. We’ve got an effort to attract as many folks as possible to sign onto a letter asking you and your colleagues across the hill to take the step now to defund Planned Parenthood. Just maybe real briefly, why is it that reconciliation and that process provides a really unique opportunity to follow through on this commitment?

Senator James Lankford:

Alright, well let’s nerd out on senate policy for a minute. Okay. There’s only a couple of moments that 51 votes pass something in the Senate. Some of those would be nominations, that’s judges and the different cabinet officials and such we’re doing for the president right now. Those take 51. But the other time is this tool called reconciliation. It’s a budget portion of it and it’s a really long arduous process to be able to get into it. But it allows you to be able to do tax policy and spending policy on what’s called mandatory spending with only 51 votes. It’s very limited. There’s lots of strict rules around it because the general body of the actions in the Senate requires 60. So the parliamentarian is always saying, is this a budget issue or is this a policy issue? If it’s a policy issue, it’s gonna take 60, it has to get kicked out.

But if it’s budget only, it takes 51 for this particular kind of vote. Literally after we finish that vote, everything goes right back to 60 again. So when we have this moment when it’s Republicans House, Senate, and White House, it’s a unique moment to say let’s do a reconciliation where let’s work on taxes and on budget items and let’s try to be able to deal with some of these issues that are maybe a little more policy. But there were actually budget issues as well. And to say let’s focus on just the budget portion of it. So we couldn’t, for instance, say we’re never gonna do anything with Planned Parenthood. That’s a policy issue, but we can deal with what are the funding and what’s the way that that funding can go. 

Brent Leatherwood:

Right. Well that’s a great explanation and we’re glad you’re leaning into that at this moment. So, referring back to something you said before about how you’ve oftentimes had conversations with fellow believers about that you know, that person in church is not who I thought they were. What advice would you offer to those individuals to be able to stay engaged across the political landscape but to do so in a healthy way?

Senator James Lankford:

This is a grand challenge. I think people do get caught up in the culture right now and it’s not a biblical culture. We would all say the culture we live in is not a biblical culture. Agree. Then the second thing is then why are you getting caught up in all the anger of current culture that actually seeks to be snarky, angry, divide, attack? If we would agree, that’s not a biblical mindset, then why do we fall into that? Well that’s just the nature of our flesh in it to be able to do that. So the first thing I do is I look at Galatians six, what’s the fruit of the flesh and what’s the fruit of the spirit? The angry side is over on the fruit of the flesh side of thing. This is the result of my old nature of it is what Titus chapter three would cause to be able to step out of that.

But then what are we gonna do to be able to actually exhibit what is the heart of God on this? So I start from that principle on it. Second thing I do is, I challenge pastors and leaders to say, speak the truth and love to everybody, but don’t fall into the politics of the day. I literally have pastors that catch me and say the way that I preach, no Democrat would be comfortable in my congregation. And I think they think because of the political perspective where I’m now, I’m gonna laugh at that. I don’t, when people say that to me, I say, that means half of your town is not welcome to hear the gospel in your church. I think it’s a terrible idea. We should present the truth in love but not be a political vehicle. The church is a unique body to be able to represent Christ to a world and to be able to demonstrate to the world that Republicans aren’t always right.

Democrats aren’t always right, but Jesus is always right. So how do we demonstrate that? And then from there are what people you disagree with in your congregation. There’ll be that time that you can still be able to engage as friends. I have to do that here. I engage in a friend relationship and there are several friends on the other side of the aisle that were genuine friends. Our spouses know each other, we check on each other’s kids, but they vote wrong all the time, all the time. But we have a great relationship on things and my task is to be able to persuade them, talk to them about what I believe about God and about what’s happening in culture and to be able to try to be an influence for good in that I can’t be an influence for good if I’m just constantly yelling at somebody. No one’s ever persuaded me by screaming in my face. That’s never happened. That may make the person screaming feel better for a moment, but no one around them is doing better and that doesn’t represent what Christ is doing in the world.

Brent Leatherwood:

That’s so good to hear about those relationships that cross the aisle and the fact that you’ve got those kinds of relationships where you are checking on the welfare of your family and how things are going because we don’t hear enough about those stories right now in our political culture. Everything it seems is designed to divide us or make us skeptical or frankly hate the person who might be on the other side of a political decision.

Senator James Lankford:

Yep. It is actually, we are in a culture in a very bad spot. I recently just put out a book, well it’s actually about to come out on April the eighth called Turnaround. And it’s a real challenge to people of faith to say, okay, look at where we’re in culture. If you don’t like where we’re in culture, what’s gonna actually happen? And the book opens, we just talk about the mirror. We look in a mirror and we don’t like what we see in the mirror. And so we start fixing it. Well the mirror to the country is Washington DC. When people look at DC a lot of times they’ll say, we’re angry, divided, yelling at each other. I was like, yeah, how’d it go at Thanksgiving last year at your house? You know, when your whole family got together, what’s it like at work?

And people are arguing with each other at church. DC is really a mirror to the country that the country doesn’t want to admit. So then the question is, when you look in a mirror, you either walk away and ignore it as the book of James says, or you actually fix it. So for me it’s the challenge to be able to say, what am I doing in my life to say I’m not just gonna expect DC to fix it. We are a representative republic. That means what happens in DC is representative of what’s happening around the country. The only way to change our politics on what’s happening nationally is for us to locally and as a family and quite frankly, personally as an individual. How am I setting the example for that? So for me it’s a walkthrough politics that the whole book, as we walk through it, it talks about anger, it talks about different things that are happening in culture. It’s really a challenge to us say, yeah, let’s turn around the country. But you turn around the country not just with a vote, but with engagement with your community in a different way. And I try to quite frankly, push my brethren in the church to be able to say, let’s think about politics from a very different perspective, more of a Jesus perspective.

Brent Leatherwood:

That’s a great word. I honestly, I can’t wait to get my hands on that book, so that is good to know. Well, alright, so for our final question here before we wrap up, and I’m sure some of this makes its way into your book. I’m curious about your time as an elected official as a US senator. How has it challenged you? Think of those moments where maybe it’s challenged your faith and then at the same time, are there instances where it has strengthened your faith as an elected official and as a leader in our nation?

Senator James Lankford:

Yeah, it’s definitely done both of those, both challenge and strengthened as those two typically go together for most of us. You know, many people remember last year I was working on an immigration bill because what we were facing on the border, what we’re facing as a country dealing with immigration, border security, just, it reached a boiling point and I thought, we gotta stop yelling at each other. We gotta figure out how to reach across the aisle and figure out how we’re gonna solve this. It’s one of those votes that’s gonna take 60 people to actually get resolved on it. But I took a lot of inbound, there’s a lot of just noise from social media that came in that was just factually not true. And so it’s a real stretching time. I walked through that in a different way, quite frankly because about seven years ago I shifted how I do my own personal Bible study.

I start every day reading the Psalms. And I know that may not sound like a big deal on it, but I’ll read a psalm every single morning because many of the Psalms are written by political leaders like David and other leaders or leaders that are around political leaders. And when you read ’em in context, many of ’em say, God, do you see what’s happening in culture? Do you see the opposition? Do you see that? Do you see the attacks that we’re taking on? I know you see it. And every morning as I read through the Psalms, it is a reset for me to go, God, I know you see, I know you see it. This is the battle I’m in. But the battle is the lord’s on it and I’ve gotta not lose track of that in a day-to-day basis. So I read through other scripture as well, obviously, but just those trips through the Psalms every day are a reset for me every single day to go, okay, don’t lose track of this.

Brent Leatherwood:

That’s such a good word. And that’s probably the best way to end this brief conversation. I, we could go on for much longer ’cause I’d love to pick your brand on so much more, but Senator Lankford, you’re a humble Christ servant, but you’re doing great things up there. You know that the ERLC, you have our prayers and I’m, I know confidently I could say this, you have the prayers of thousands of Southern Baptists who are, are proud of you and you’re a defender of the faith. You’re a defender of preborn lives, you’re a voice of the vulnerable. And we are just so thankful that God has ordained all this to put you in the position that you’re in. So, a heartfelt thanks, not just to a fellow brother in Christ, but a friend. And we are very thankful for you, Senator James Lankford. So please keep up the great work. 

Senator James Lankford:

Will do, Thanks. I appreciate that very much. Keep praying for the nation, for all of us. I encourage people, those folks that drive you crazy on tv, you want to yell at the TV about stop and pray for them. That’s my mission field and a lot of other folks that are here on it. And to be able to say, if we can just shift as believers from praying for those that frustrate us, rather than just yelling at the TV on those that will make a huge difference in each of us. And I believe as we pray, make a difference in the nation.

Brent Leatherwood:

That’s a great word. Senator James Lankford. Thank you sir.

Senator James Lankford:

Thanks y’all.

Narration:

Senator Lankford’s challenge is for all of us who are frustrated by today’s political climate. In a time when politics and faith often seem in tension, Senator Lankford offers a vision of public service guided by a commitment to Christ, to truth, and to biblical principles of dignity, respect, and love of neighbor for those seeking to engage politically without sacrificing their Christian witness. His example provides a compelling picture of how we can be salt and light in the public square. 

Thanks for listening to this episode of the ERLC podcast. Join us next time as we begin a new series focused on making the voice of our churches heard through policy advocacy at the state level.