What you should know about physician-assisted suicide

As Southern Baptists, we believe in the sanctity of all lives, from conception to the natural end of life. But in recent years, we’ve seen the value of human life increasingly challenged through legislation, both domestically and internationally, that seeks to legalize physician-assisted suicide. 

Over the past few years, we’ve witnessed heartbreaking developments related to end-of-life issues. In Canada, the country has formally recommended expanding medical assistance in dying to include mature minors. In the U.K., Parliament has advanced multiple bills that would legalize the practice. And just this past year, three U.S. states have moved to legalize physician-assisted suicide, bringing the total to 14 states (including D.C.) that have legalized the practice.

On today’s episode, you’ll hear from Katy Roberts, senior policy manager for the ERLC, as she speaks with ERLC Interim President Dr. Gary Hollingsworth, about the moral, ethical, and legislative concerns around physician assisted suicide.  Prior to joining the ERLC, Katy worked on Capitol Hill in both the United States Senate and the House of Representatives, and previously worked in clinical healthcare—experience that informs her policy work today.

Episode Transcript: What you should know about physician-assisted suicide

Narration:

Welcome to The ERLC Podcast, where our goal is to help you think biblically about today’s cultural issues. I’m Lindsay Nicolet, and today we’re talking about physician-assisted suicide. 

As Southern Baptists, we believe in the sanctity of all lives, from conception to the natural end of life. But in recent years, we’ve seen the value of human life increasingly challenged through legislation, both domestically and internationally, that seeks to legalize physician-assisted suicide. 

Over the past few years, we’ve witnessed heartbreaking developments related to end-of-life issues. In Canada, the country has formally recommended expanding medical assistance in dying to include mature minors. In the U.K., Parliament has advanced multiple bills that would legalize the practice. And just this past year, three U.S. states have moved to legalize physician-assisted suicide, bringing the total to 14 states (including D.C.) that have legalized the practice.

On today’s episode, you’ll hear from Katy Roberts, senior policy manager for the ERLC, as she speaks with ERLC Interim President Dr. Gary Hollingsworth, about the moral, ethical, and legislative concerns around physician assisted suicide.  Prior to joining the ERLC, Katy worked on Capitol Hill in both the United States Senate and the House of Representatives, and previously worked in clinical healthcare—experience that informs her policy work today.

Now, let’s turn to Dr. Gary Hollingsworth’s conversation with Katy Roberts.   

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

Welcome to The ERLC Podcast. I’m here today with Katy Roberts. Katy is our senior policy manager and she serves in our Washington, D.C., office. We are here today to talk about a topic that is probably something many people know about but really don’t perhaps think about, particularly when it comes to policy issues of the day. And we’re here to talk about physician-assisted suicide. So Katy, welcome to the podcast, and we’re just here to talk a little bit about it today.

Katy Roberts:

Thanks, Dr. Hollingsworth. Yes, I hesitate to say that I’m looking forward to talking about this, but I am in the sense that it’s important, and it’s an issue that is not often highlighted in national and local media, so it’s important to talk about.

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

Well, maybe just as a first question, what is physician-assisted suicide. We are pro-life, and when we think about pro-life, often, we obviously think about abortion, but this is actually a part of the pro-life movement as well. Define it, and talk about how it plays into a larger sanctity of life belief.

Katy Roberts:

Sure. When we typically talk about physician-assisted suicide, you might hear it referred to as a couple of other names. Death with dignity is a name that’s thrown around in state legislatures, mercy killing, euthanasia, but all of those terms typically refer to a precise form of medical killing where the doctor or pharmacist usually both prescribe medication and then, ultimately, it’s the patient that ends up taking their own life. So a doctor, a medical provider enables the patient to take his or her own life, and that’s technically part of a broader topic or category of euthanasia, which is something you might hear fairly commonly. Some coalitions that talk about physician-assisted suicide this way by opposing euthanasia. But there are a couple types of euthanasia, and primarily they’re not morally permissible. You have the kind where, literally, in some European countries, somebody is actively taking your life at your request.

So this is often called voluntary active euthanasia. Then you have voluntary inactive where physician- assisted suicide would fall. And this is what happens. Again, the doctor is prescribing the method, the permission, the means to then allow and enable the patient to take his or her own life, usually through taking a pill cocktail. And then you have a passive form of euthanasia, which really is what we often think of in hospice care, where we gradually forego treatment when it’s clear that somebody is what we might call irretrievably dying. That’s technically a morally-permissible or even favorable kind of euthanasia. So all these terms get all muddy when we’re talking about what to do when someone is terminally ill or dying or when they wish to die. So it’s been on my heart and mind to be clear when we talk about this issue what we are actually saying.

And so when we talk about physician-assisted suicide, if we believe in a biblical sanctity of life, it’s not permissible because we believe that all people that are made in God’s image are valuable. They have inherent dignity and worth, and they’re also God’s. I am God’s; you are God’s. We are stewards of our own lives. We know that God numbers our days. Katy doesn’t number Katy’s days. And so there are some other principles to keep in mind, like stewardship of our bodies. I’m thinking about Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians a lot lately that we’re not our own. So that’s a principle to keep in mind too. But we want to be consistent in our sanctity of life adherence. So if we believe that from conception life is valuable, we should believe that all human life is valuable, whether it’s somebody struggling with an eating disorder or a disability or somebody who’s terminally ill, and those kinds of afflictions or conditions that I’ve just mentioned are often the kinds of folks who at least think about seeking out assisted suicide. So it’s a matter of being consistent and valuing people. So it’s important to talk about not only valuing the preborn, but all people.

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

And you know, Katy, just by that definition that it’s not near as simple as one might think. It’s a very complex issue, and certainly we know there are moral implications, there are ethical implications, but clearly for we who are Christians, and Bible-believing Christians, that there’s clearly a theological underpinning to this as well. And certainly that’s important because, and we again use that terminology of just the sanctity of human life. We are created in the image of God, but at the same time on the ground, it does get very complex. So thanks for explaining that it’s not just a one size fits all conversation. And so really for our interest today though, and this is going to be a little bit more into the weeds of what happens particularly in D.C. with legislation. So what type of legislation are you seeing right now that’s going on in Washington related to this issue of physician-assisted suicide on the policy side of the discussion?

Katy Roberts:

Sure. It’s a bit of a trick question in some ways because there has not been really any activity at the federal level in terms of bills being introduced. There’s minimal activity on the federal level in regards to this issue. A few different members of house have introduced amendments to different government funding bills to try to ban physician-assisted suicide. But thankfully we do have a federal law from 1997 that prohibits the use of federal funding. So your appropriations funding for carrying out physician-assisted suicide. But other than that statute, we don’t have federal legislation; we don’t have a ban. And so it is ultimately a state decision. States can decide whether it’s expressly legal or whether it’s expressly prohibited. No state has legalized a ban. Gradually state by state, we’re seeing more of the country legalize physician-assisted suicides. So because we’re seeing that spread at the state level, we know that that’s indicative of a kind of current and a pattern in our country that’s deeply concerning. Federal lawmakers are starting to catch wind of it and ask questions and think, okay, how can we address this not only in our states, but maybe even up here? So again, at the federal level, it’s mostly in the member and staff education stages. There isn’t a lot of formal legislative text being crafted. And in some ways I think that’s great. People are not pushing for mass access and the government to subsidize the practice, but I think we can consider ways to protect life at the federal level too.

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

And Katy, you raised a question that is separate from, but important to, the bigger conversation, and maybe for some listeners out there who might not be aware of kind of what the ERLC does when it comes to policy advocacy and not just what we advocate for, but I know often, at least internally, we talk about our coalition partners, for example, on certain issues where evangelical and groups do come together for certain things. Could you talk for maybe just a moment sort of in terms of what the ERLC does and can do and maybe even what we don’t do in these kinds of matters, because that might help  people even know better how to pray for you and others who try to work on the policy side. And take just a moment and talk about, again, the ERLC in our role, either in advocating for certain things or sometimes advocating, as you said, sometimes not passing a law is what we might advocate for. So can you talk, for just a moment, a little bit more about how we do what we do?

Katy Roberts:

I can indeed. We are primarily concerned with federal legislation here at the ERLC. Our ministry assignment includes policy and advocacy as well as a number of other responsibilities in the public square. But we are to take the convictions and consensus beliefs of Southern Baptists to the public square to the federal government, including Congress, the White House, and the courts. We engage the courts. That’s actually a significant chunk of our policy and advocacy work and signing on to different amicus briefs and tracking the court cases that are pertinent to us and important in light of what Southern Baptists care about. So on this issue, we primarily are doing member and staff education on Capitol Hill. So how I have spent my time is coordinating with some coalition partners to go and meet with staff and discuss the issue, to request meetings with members, to talk on podcasts, to talk in articles, and to raise awareness about why this actually matters in the grand scheme of national politics, not just state-level politics.

And to highlight the moral concerns, I think that people do understand not only are we a voice in policy and advocacy, but we’re a voice in terms of morality. So people receive us that way in D.C., which is humbling and wonderful. And we have a wonderful research team who primarily serves in that capacity in creating church guides and resources for our pastors and churches. But even just this morning, I was at a meeting and handed out some of our research church guides to Hill staff, and it’s very practically helpful for them as they’re seeking to understand the moral demands of policy decisions that they’re making and weighing. So we’re kind of on the front end of this issue on physician-assisted suicide. I actually think that you most recently talked about this, Dr. Hollingsworth, where we balance the reflective and the prophetic, and often we want to be good stewards of being reflective of Scripture and applying those principles in the public square of what Southern Baptists have said. And in this area, anchored in what we know about the sanctity of life, it’s on the edge of prophetic because we can see a tidal wave coming and a culture of death spreading in our nation. So that’s what engagement has looked like on this issue. Again, we engage all three branches of government and seek to do issues and morality based advocacy.

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

That is so helpful, Katy, to have a clear and better understanding when I’m having individual conversations, often with people who ask me even during this interim time, so what do you do and what are you doing? And what is the ERLC? Because we don’t wake up every morning thinking about policy issues in D.C. if you don’t live there like you do and live in it. But the few times that I’ve had in these past several months to actually engage with legislatures there in D.C. on a variety of topics, I’ve been very pleasantly surprised, if I can say it that way, and was a little amazed that our congressmen and women and senators, they have staff who do a lot of research, but they cannot be experts on everything, and so many things come at them.

And I’ve just been so very pleased when we could come in, and you’ve been in that room with me most of the time, I think maybe all of all the time, when I’ve had those meetings that you could tell that legislators lean into and are grateful, and perhaps we’re providing some research and information that they did not have. And of course we’re coming at it from a biblical, Scriptural, moral worldview, if you will. I know that there are some, perhaps, who question the value, do we need an ERLC? Why do we need an ERLC? And for at least one person, me, I can clearly say that having our voice heard in these areas, not just on this topic, but there is great value there. And I think you’ve heard me say this before when you and I were leaving a Congress person’s office one day, and it struck me that if we were not in there having that conversation, someone would be in there having a conversation because there were people waiting when we got there to get in.

And there were people who had just come out when we walked in. And I’m sure it’s a steady stream. And so I just want to say again, a personal word of gratitude to you and to all of our staff because that voice is much needed. If we abdicate that space, then we will really have no influence. And so it’s more than just information and education to our Southern Baptists. I think that a lot of legislators are looking to us at times, and I’m grateful for that and I hope Southern Baptist can better appreciate that. 

Let me ask, I know we’ve already talked a little bit about this, but I want you to dig down just a tad more. When you really do think about the moral and the ethical concerns about this, obviously, biblically we know where we stand on the sanctity of life and every human’s created in the image of God. But could you just go maybe just a tad deeper. Maybe for some who’ve not really taken time to think through all of this, what are the moral and ethical concerns related to this. What’s your take on that?

Katy Roberts:

There are many, but you’re right. It’s important to parse them out because some are self-evident and some are not. Because I often think of the issue of physician-assisted suicide towards the end of life. That’s not always true. We see countries like Canada providing access to assisted suicide for teenagers with very minimal guardrails. So this is not just an issue pertinent to older adults, definitely not worldwide in America, the state laws all have to do with terminal illness. So again, not only older adults, but a large chunk of who that might apply to could be older adults. And so I think we’ve all cared for a family member or a dear friend as their life nears the close, whether it’s because they are 95 and aging gracefully, but their body’s not as able as it once was.

I had a parent with terminal cancer, and caring for her brought to light some of these questions. You think about suffering and mercy. What do we actually owe when we take care of people and what is merciful if somebody’s in constant pain? And so, ultimately, where we have to fall back on when we’re thinking about assisted suicide is our lives are not our own. And that applies not just to the self, but there’s commands that we also have to take into consideration to not murder. It sounds really stark, but that’s what’s happening when a medical provider enables and is an agent in the process of the person taking a cocktail to take their own life. They’re aiding and abetting murder. That is what’s happening, or suicide in this case. So we also, from a secular standpoint, can even zoom out and just hold concern with the role and incentive of the doctor.

Like the doctor has sworn to the Hippocratic Oath and is committed to not harm. And this is actually the direct opposite of that. And the AMA has actually has put out a statement saying just that the assisted suicide, it’s actually the opposite of what doctors have sworn to in doing no harm. This irretrievably does harm to the patient. So we even have that secular, objective commitment that medical providers have made on our side. But yeah, these ideas of autonomy and what’s actually merciful and what do we do when people suffer are swirling about and understandably so. Ultimately, in my opinion, it comes back to God’s sovereignty over our lives. That’s goodness. You cannot talk about this and God’s sovereignty without talking about his goodness too. And I would invite people listening to wrestle with that. Like, do I believe that even in the midst of suffering of truly unimaginable kinds, for myself or somebody else, do I still believe God is perfectly good? And I think as Christians we have to weigh that as we’re thinking about this issue and the morality of it all.

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

And you’ve really hit the nail on the head. We always come back to the core of these kinds of issues as complex as they are, once again to the biblical and a theological framework that sometimes people don’t think through. And you’ve raised an issue, and we won’t talk much more about it, but I think for the average person, myself included, when I first begin to ask a few questions knowing that again, this is something that’s coming perhaps more on the horizon in the future than it is today. But again, not just someone with a terminal illness in the senior years of life, but younger people who don’t have terminal illnesses but maybe suffer from some very real issues, medical issues or even depression, emotional issues, kinds of things that, in other words, they’re just not happy with their life and, therefore, they would like to have permission, if you will, not only permission to say to someone, well if my life’s not going like I want to go, then I’ll take my life.

And oh, by the way, I need a little help doing that. So that’s where it gets very, very complicated. And I’d love for, again, our listeners to just let that hang over their conscience a bit just as we think about the larger implications of this, Katy, and you’ve explained that so very well. And again, I would always drive people as you have so well today, back to the scriptures, what does the Bible have to say about life? Who is the giver of life? Who is the taker of life? And what is God’s sovereign purpose over every one of our lives? Does he have a plan and a purpose? And of course we know the answer is yes. So, you have done a great job of kind of explaining that at this level. 

Katy Roberts:

That’s very kind. I mean it’s impossible, in my opinion, to talk about this issue and not harken back to the gospel and how, without an eternal perspective, you really can be consumed in some of these hurts and suffering. And so really this topic is a gospel opportunity for us. And I guess leaping off of that point, I’m curious what you would say from a pastoral standpoint. How do you see this issue affecting church members today? It might seem far off for some. What’s your take on that?

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

Well, I’m so glad that you know more about the policy because I don’t. But if I know anything, God has called me as a pastor, that’s clearly the calling of God. So thank you for asking that question, Katy. And I can speak now from a pastoral perspective that over the number of years where I’ve served with people, obviously there’s no pastor out there who has not had to deal with a church member or a family of a church member who has committed suicide, maybe not physician assisted. So number one, we cannot hide from the reality of those things. And those pastoral implications are multifaceted. And often we see this on advertisements or even television shows that deal with the topic. If there’s anyone out there who’s questioning should I take my life? Or if you know someone who has had that conversation with you, the first thing I would say is reach out to someone, call a pastor, call a Christian counselor, reach out and get help because you have to take those, if I can use the word threats, very seriously. 

When someone makes that threat, that cannot just be something that you think, “Oh, you know, they’re just having a bad day.” We started the conversation about the complexity of this and how it does touch so many places and so many people in different ways. I think for every pastor out there, it’s important the more a pastor can understand both the complexity of the issue, whether it’s physician assisted or not. And then number two, I would even say as a pastor, I always try to find resources because I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told parishioners, I’m not the expert in that area. And many times taking someone towards good, solid biblical counseling, someone who’s more gifted and skilled in that. But it usually begins with a conversation talking to somebody.

So I think the pastoral edge of this is awareness from a pastor. Education is a pastor building a good arsenal of resources around you so that you can help people when these things come up because it’s not a matter of if they’re going to come up; it’s a matter of just when they’re going to come up and how they’re going to come up. And so I think as a pastor, I’m grateful to know, for example, even that we have church guide resources that deal with some of these issues. And I would really encourage any pastor, if you don’t have those, you can go on our website and find those resources and they’re free, they’re there. Our Cooperative Program dollars have already paid for that. It’s just yours for the taking. So I think from the pastoral side, it would be to understand it, educate and inform yourself, and equip yourself.

And that would just be my two cents worth on the pastoral end because, trust me, after these many years of being a pastor, I’ve been there and done that. I’ll come back to simply say that’s why the ERLC exists. We really want to help our pastors and our churches understand these topics. Well, Katy, I want to thank you for taking time today. I know it’s quite busy up there in D.C. and not just thank you for what you do today in this podcast, but what you and our team really do every day in keeping a finger on the pulse of what’s going on up there to keep us better educated. Are there any final words you might want to say before we log off here for the day? Anything extra you’d like to throw in regarding this?

Katy Roberts:

I think I am grateful for, honestly, the way that your description of the pastoral edge really aligns with our heart in advocacy, like with knowledge that no one will be untouched by this in the long term. Kind of getting ahead and wanting to encourage families and pastors and folks in ministry to be equipped to have thoughtful and biblically-rooted conversations with people if they come to them in a time of need. And I guess one thing we didn’t really touch on is kind of the state by state landscape. And so you might wonder, okay, just how bad is it? What’s actually happening in America? And so I’ll give you a snapshot to understand where our country is and where we’re headed. In the last year, three states have legalized physician-assisted suicide. So that brings our total up to 14. 

In the past five years, five states have legalized it. So when you put that in perspective, three in one year is really a lot. And then we have 14 actively looking at state legislation right now to utilize the practice. And so, again, it may not be legal or a problem that you see in your state day in and day out right now, but it’s certainly coming, if not to you then to your family member or friend or somebody connected to your church. And so it’s something that we don’t want to be caught off guard by. We want to equip people to engage from a biblical standpoint, and we’ll certainly keep doing our work here to engage on the advocacy front, but I think that’s helpful for people to understand what’s happening as we talk about these things. So I’m grateful to get to talk about that with you today.

Dr. Gary Hollingsworth:

Excellent. That’s also a good reminder as well, and I’ll close with this, that not every state convention, but many of our state conventions, and I was one of those state convention leaders in South Carolina and live here now in Alabama, but many of our state conventions have an office of public policy. It may be called something different in individual states. Sometimes they have a Christian life and public affairs committee as a part of their conviction structure. And we work as closely as we can with those state leaders as well. I know that at the ERLC, our primary task is at the federal level, but we really have to work hand in glove. And we’re seeing that with the overall abortion issue today is that with the overturn of Roe v. Wade, we thought we’ve won the victory, and we did win a great victory, but that battle has, of course, shifted to the states and, therefore, once again, it becomes even more complex.

So I think the same is true. What I’m hearing you say is the same is true. It’s just at a little different spot along the journey with physician-assisted suicide in individual states. So that is something for all of us to keep our eyes on. And Katy, thank you so much, and thanks for all who have listened to this. And again, just know that our heart at the ERLC is to serve you and to do so again from a clear, biblical perspective and worldview. And we pray that today has been something that has given you something to not only ponder and think about, but also begin to even pray about how you could be involved more in that as this issue continues. God bless you all. Thanks so much for listening today. And may the Lord use you today to bring honor and glory to our Savior Jesus.

Narration:

When it comes to the complex topic of physician-assisted suicide, our goal is to continue advocating for compassionate, life-affirming treatment for those receiving end-of-life care because we believe every life is created by God and is worthy of protection. 

The ERLC remains committed to upholding the sanctity of life by urging lawmakers to reject the legalization of physician-assisted suicide across the country. Ultimately, we want to proclaim God’s sovereignty and goodness over life, even in the midst of suffering, and the truth that every person is made in his image.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The ERLC Podcast. Join us next time for another conversation on how to think biblically about today’s cultural issues.